I am just curious as to how far the C&S up Ohio creek. I am thinking of modeling some of the area up the Creek, so to speak under the assumption it was completed at some point. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Cosmo: My plan is to get a geologic map of the area and see if the terrain would support an extension of the line up and over Kebler Pass. I read somewhere that there was either a D&RGW or C&S survey done but no one ever confirmed this. Supposedly up into Ohio Creek the C&S did build a bit but that was taken over by the "Other Road". My wife and I had planned to build a small layout set in the late 20's or early 30's. Using C&S and Rio Grande equipment as base. Currently the name we chose temporarily is the Rio Grande Central, but it's open for a change. We have a good friend who models with us who loves the Moguls as I do. We have both the Bachmann On30 models 21 and 22. The other locos on the roster is a C-19 from precision scale number 347. There is both passenger and freight rolling stock, all Bachmann, with plans to acquire some better models from both San Juan and wiseman
Our friend is moving to an apartment and we nearby and we plan to build a small layout in his living room. We live in a retirement home and can only build rolling stock kits and structures for our future layout.
According to Poor's Memorial end of track of the Baldwin branch was approximately 18mi. from the station at Gunnison.A good man to contact would be Larry Green,who at one time had a CD available of maps from Buena Vista to Baldwin and beyond including the half-built grading.He even lives near the end of the line.Sorry I don't have his contact info- maybe somebody on the Forum does.There is a chapter in the original DSP&P Pictorial about the unbuilt branch including a map in the map pocket and a photo of a map in an early DSP&P brochure showing where the line would have gone.
The chapter in DSP&P Pictorial indicates that surveyors at least got as far as Grand Junction.Maybe they made it to Utah.AT one time MMRs Bill and Mary Miller modeled the line as though it was a C&S branch surviving into the early 1940s
Robert: Thanks for your response. I really liked the pictures of the branch and for refreshing my memory as to the real name of it.
I remember an article in an old MR publication about the Miller's layout with some excellent photos.
Again thanks for the pictures an information.
Jeff: I guess it will take some research to see if there was any other name in use by either the DSP&P/C&S. Thanks for your input. I hope to get out to the Gunnison area soon and do a little investigating on site of the line.
I guess I used the Baldwin Branch when referencing the D&RGW books in my first post and should have used a comma after that reference in hindsight. I knew it by that name long before learning of the existance of the C&S in that area, I think having American Narrow Gauge and Scenic Line of the World CRRA #8 a year before I found The Mineral Belt via the local library.
I find this rather interesting as well considering that the line was built specifically and directly to the two coal Mines, Kubler and Baldwin both branched from the Townsite of Castleton.
Mac Poor states South Park Director's minutes refered to it as "Gunnison Valley Extension". DSP&P pg203.
On pg237 He refers to it as "The Ohio Creek branch between Gunnison and Baldwin"
He also wrote on pg 292 that "The Kubler Branch was operated intermittently along with the Baldwin Branch by the South Park until it was taken over by the Rio Grande in 1911."
C&S Timetable #1, June 5, 1922 pages it as "Garos and Baldwin Subdivision".
The DSP&P had suspended work on the grade beyond Baldwin BEFORE rails were laid on the already graded line to Baldwin.Somewhere around 1893 there was an abortive attempt to resume construction but it failed.
The C&S graded as far as Floresta. They were in a race with the D&RG to get to the anthracite coal mine that CF&I was building there. There was even a mini-war between the two railroads that was taken to court. C&S grade was higher than the D&RG grade and the D&RG workmen complained that C&S workers were rolling rocks down onto them. The D&RG completed their branch into Floresta in 1893 and the C&S saw no reason to continue with their line as the CF&I would give all the coal traffic to the D&RG.
I hiked into the Floresta several times before the site was purchased by a wealthy family and is now posted no trespassing. You could still see the C&S grade above the D&RG branch ROW.
There are many mentions of grading been done in situations that made little long term sense. Between Como and Jefferson there is a new Reservoir, not for local use but built as a trading card for use elsewhere.
I think this was also the case with Railroads.
Did they have grandiose plans originally, absolutely, but the details seem to be left until later and the plans changed as opportunities arose and disappeared.
They seem to have stalled a bit at Gunnison, intentionally? Not clear, the focus may have moved elsewhere and those plans were just dangled to annoy the DRG.
The grading on Ohio Pass would have been under the auspicies of the Union Pacific not the C&S. I've read in several books that mentioned UP owned large interests in the Coal reserves around that area, and the Union Coal Co aquired these from UP in 1883. I've also read that it was Trumbull, the UP receiver that held interests in Union Coal.
I've more to come on this area as soon as I can get to it. On the USGS Topographical maps of the Gunnison area, the "Baldwin" branch is pretty much shown in its entirety with the exception of the Kubler branch. It is apparent that the Ohio grading was headed for Floresta as Jerry Day has related, the Alpine Mine renamed Baldwin would have been on a Spur as the grading towards the Pass was West of Ohio Creek. Look for the 737A Rd at Baldwin, that was the Main street shown in X-11202 of my above post.
USGS 7.5 Minute Quadrangle 38107 G1 Mount Axtell and F1 Squirrel Creek
Larry Green was able to put together a CD of old DSP&P ROW maps from Buena Vista to and including the partially graded but unbuilt line at Ohio Creek rock wall.Todd Hackett can fill you in on the details.There was a presentation at 2014 DSP&PHS where they showed a slide of Floresta and pointed out the DL&G grade.DSP&P Pictorial indicates Ohio Creek grading work stopped in April 1882 when the UP moved the crews to work on the Oregon Short Line.
I am resurrecting this thread for a bit more searching. You guys mentioned somev people that might be a source of knowledge in regards to the Ohio Creek area.
Would someone be so kind to list them again?
Fred & Sue Cotterell
C&S Kebler pass Subdivision
The Kebler Pass Route