yes, the dome rings were ornamental. An epic example of loss and replacement of these was the C&S leased engine D&RGW 346, which lost the rings off its domes in the wreck at Kenosha pass in 1936, and worked the rest of its life without them. Finally in its retirement they were replaced, with ones salvaged from #345 which was destroyed in a staged collision for a movie in 1951.
thanks so much for this information! This sets me off in the right direction, now I can understand much better what I am seeing in photos.
The cistern I have is 18 feet long, I hope that makes a reasonable starting point to accommodate the dimensions you gave. Here are crops of three of the "Style A" photos that Jim posted.
I'm looking at the decks, the one on 58's tender extends back beyond the cistern and has a toolbox on it I think, while 65's and 70's do not extend beyond the cistern, and the toolbox is up top as you described. I could shorten the tender frame to be like those and move the toolbox up. Would that make sense with the 18' tank? I like that idea, as you suggest that it was characteristic. It looks like 65's tender cistern is longer than 70's, with more length behind the coal bunker. I don't know which is more like the 18' cistern I have. Judging from the trucks and their spacing in the two photos, I suspect what I have is nearer to 65's --??
I'll be doing some work on the tender frame anyway because the side sills are too narrow, and I want to make the deck right. I see all those shadows along the side sills- is the deck made of boards spaced apart by about their width, with a metal band along the edge?
Oh. Just now I notice that 70's side sills are narrower, much like those on my model. complications….
An 18' tank is pretty long, that's what the B-4-F tanks were. But don't worry about that. Any builder can tell you there are always compromises that have to be made on every project. Tenders were often rebuilt, switched, replaced sometimes depending on whatever they had available. You'll find obviously different tanks on most locomotives from pictures taken over a period of years. The only tenders which seem to have been perfectly consistent in later years are the B-4-F's. Each was unique and different from the others. There may be others which had the same tenders as well, but I'm too old to worry about that stuff.
I would still recommend a 5' rear deck behind the bunker. For comparison, if you want to look at some photos, some engines with a 5' deck are, #74, #76, #71, #72, and #6. #60 has a 4' deck, and so does #75. My #537 has a 5' deck, as I was convinced that was correct, it was #70's tender. PSC's #69 has a 4'6" deck, and it looks correct. If you see a toolbox up there, it's at least a 5' deck.
#73's tender in later years has a 6'3" deck, and so does #8.
Mike, excellent, I'll make a 5' deck and put the tool box on it. I think I'll shorten the frame to eliminate the part past the end of the cistern.
Could I ask you a huge favor- could you post a photo of a front view of one of your tenders? I think I understand basically what is there from your description, but seeing it would be really helpful as to how the coal boards were set in, and the boxes connected (did they have a door, and on which side?). Otherwise, all the posted photos of #60's tender in that thread are a great help, I think I understand how to do the back end well now.
I hope I can do justice to all the great help you, and Jim, and everybody, are giving me!
John, this sort of coal gate can be seen, as I recall, in a particular angle of DSP&P Mason Bogie #42. So this goes all the way back on the South Park. Let me know if you'd like any other photos. I'll be glad to help any way I can.
Front view #72, showing upper gate in place:
Upper view #73 showing upper gate loose in bunker:
A couple of other things yo note from the front view.
Note that the two verticle plates that are mounted to the boxes are both set to the right side. These provide weather buffers for the fireman, and also provide support above for a rack to hold a hook above the gate, as well as an additional plate overhead.
The water valves at the front are located directly above the feed pipes to the engine.
You can use the search engine for Coal Gates which will link to some other discussions on this site. There is a picture of the front of Tim Schreiner's #74 tender, and also one that shows my 74 and 76 tenders side by side. The upper gate on 74 was extended down to cover where the top 2x6 should have been and is the largest upper gate I've seen. One of the cast retainers must have broken. One photo taken from the trailing caboose shows that odd gate loose, so there is no mistaking why it was made like that. 76's boxes are completely different from any others. But all have hinges on doors that provide storage. They probably held tools, marker lights for the tender when traveling light as all helpers did downgrade, and a lantern. A lantern would typically be hung from the engineers side marker bracket which would be handy when taking water at night.
Incidentally, those long hooks were also used to lower spouts on the water tanks. As you work on detailing your locomotives, think of how these little things you see in photos could be used. Anything you see was there for a reason!
Note that the two vertical plates that are mounted to the boxes are both set to the right side. These provide weather buffers for the fireman, and also provide support above for a rack to hold a hook above the gate, as well as an additional plate overhead.
John, you should note that Mike's modeling C&S power in the 1930s. The vertical plates with overhead rack didn't come along until the late 1920s, when the "intermediate" tenders had been remodeled to their final form. From the teens to late 1920s, there was nothing in front of the tool boxes except the water valves. The tool boxes were wood on the old flaired collar tenders, sheet metal beginning with the intermediate tenders.
Consider two photos of Mikes number 73:
Denver 1929. Note that the area in front of the tool boxes is wide open.
Denver 1931. Two years later, the vertical panels and racks that Mike discusses have been added. A coal gate has been tossed back to the rear of the coal bunker.
Look at the three tender crops that you posted above (you can see through the cab windows) . . . nothing but tool boxes. Just one more thing that you don't have too model.
thanks for posting the photos of your superb models! All the details are wonderful, and for some reason the shovel just sets the whole thing off perfectly. After all, that humble shovel and the man who wielded it all day made the whole thing go! I hadn't known what the long rod hanging on the fireman's side was for. I'm learning a lot about tenders and how they were tended to.
Jim, yes, I noticed that the extra structure was not in the intermediate phase, so, yes- one less thing to do for my model! I have a question about that structure. In Mike's #72 front view, at the very top front of the crosswise structure is a slat that looks as if it is mounted on a rod that allows it to rotate downward, what does that do, keep the snow out?
Also, I had noticed the fittings that the bottom coal boards slot into in one of the excellent photos that Doug Heitcamp posted in the #60 tender thread. It shows that the second board up was set at an angle, as Mike's model also shows. Was that so the fireman could see behind the bottom board, and maybe poke around in there to loosen up the coal so it would come out properly?
John, a while back we all started noticing some features peculiar to South Park firemen.
The long rod hanging from the tender is used to clean out clues. When you can hours, perhaps you can put a twist on the end to help real out the crusties?!?
Ahead of the cab is a similar tool, but with the leg bent at a right angle to help wrangle clinkers: I bet this would also be perfect for sharing the rope on a water spout, too.
Mos important, South Park engines seem to travel with a spare coal scoop (or two!). I don't know if the fireman is working so hard, he is apt to break the scoop?; if they are easy to misplace in the spacious cab-deck area, or in the excitement of scooping coal he is apt to let his scoop go right into the firebox? Anyway we spotted a number of locos with spare scoops ahead of the cab.
And don't forget to have that coal grate on top of the pile: so South Park!
That item you are describing is merely an overhead rack for a hook. Keith is right, that long rod on the side is an auger for boring flues.
Yes, there was always a spare scoop, most likely carried in the fireman side of the cab. A broken handle would be fatal to operations. Sometimes, not often, they were hung on a hook on the side. But you can be sure there was always a spare on board.
So, here's my first cut at a new superstructure for my tender. I just made a cardstock mockup, using the dimensions that Mike suggested.
The rear deck of the cistern is 5 feet long from the back of the coal bunker. The motor sticks up a little under the back of the bunker, easy to change that if I decide to keep it in the tender, or I guess the toolbox would hide it anyway when it goes up there.
Mike, Jim, and anyone, thoughts much appreciated! I'm getting excited, I like the looks of these proportions!
I agree completely! You are off to a really good start. We'll all be willing to help any way we can. This will be an excellent project for you, and when it's done you will have a lot of new skills and confidence you didn't have before.