Type C/UP trucks

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Type C/UP trucks

Michael York
Greetings,

First, I've enjoyed reading all the content on here for years...so thank you for posting!

I'm enjoying George's build logs, and he pointed me to some of the old threads here with nice photos of the Type C/UP trucks.  I did a bit of work on South Park, CC, and D&RG trucks a few years back: I printed the CC and early D&RG trucks in 1:20.3, as well as the Type A/Litchfield trucks in On3.  I found a a draft version of the Type C/UP trucks from August 2013, so perhaps I should finish the design and make them available.

Here's where I would appreciate a little help...the photo enhancements posted on here reveal detail which I feel like I should incorporate into my trucks.

I feel like I need to shrink the journal lids and maybe increase the distance between the truck transoms.  I should probably improve the detail on the transom castings (the little plates in between the transoms which have the circular hole).  I'm not sure why the bolster looks like it does...my best guess is that I did that for alignment with the side bearings.

The wheelbase for these is 4'.  I designed them to use the Grandt Line axles, although a redesign for the SJCC needle axles may be in order.




I do have a very strong preference for 3D printed trucks due to the detail level obtainable, the flexibility of the material, and the rolling properties.  You just don't want to drop them on the floor when using metal wheelsets.  If anyone wants Sn3 or HOn3 versions, just let me know the axle length, diameter, and shoulder vs pointed...and I can figure out if it is a reasonable level of effort for me to rescale it (printing limitations).  I need the On3 version for 2-3 cars which have been sitting on my workbench for 10 years...one of which had scratchbuilt styrene trucks which got smashed...
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
Wow, a timely thread, Michael.

I'm about to take on modifying some of Eric's Rio Grande Models Carter Bros. trucks (4 foot wheelbase) in Sn3 to try to match the details of the "type C" UP 14 ton trucks. Printed trucks would be even better.

This is what I'm using so far:




My first impression of your drawing is that the transoms are too tall, too close togethere and the circular cut out too small. I see a single spring thru the circular cut out. These are the best photos I have of the side frames:


Courtesy of Todd Hacket. 1901, Washington Spur wreck.



About 1902. UP 14 ton truck on left, Litchfield 12 ton truck on right.



Courtesy Doug Heitkamp. 14 ton truck on flanger in Leadville, 1930s


To my eye, the center plate with the circular cutout has a metal ridge, horizontally placed at the top and near the the bottom of the plate. Two tie rods are run through the transoms just above and below the circular cut out, with bolt heads visible on the outside of the transoms.

For an Sn3 version, I am using PBL's wheel sets:

Axle diameter = 0.100 inches, pointed ends.
Axle length (to end of point) = 0.900 inches.
Wheel thickness = 0.095 inches.
Wheel diameter = 0.400 inches.
Flange diameter = 0.440 inches.
Axle end (point) to wheel face =0.11 inches.

If you can't tell, I would love to have 15-20 pair of these trucks, printed in Sn3, as it would save a lot of time in modifying the white metal truck assemblies that I have now.

I now believe these trucks were ubiquitous, used under both the 26' and 27' Tiffany reefers, the 27' UP built boxcars and both classes of  27' coal cars. The more familiar 20 ton "type B" trucks were pretty much confined to the 30' Peninsular boxcars, coal cars and flat cars, also used under locomotive tenders in the 1890's.

While you're making drawings for printed trucks, how about re-scaling the 12 ton Litchfield "type A" trucks that you produced in On3 to Sn3 as well, like the ones under the flat car above? The only Sn3 version is by the Leadville Shops as brass castings and are difficult to fit and solder together.

I have a couple of sets of your S scale South Park early under frames, destined to be installed under an Overland brass way car. They are exquisite parts. I look forward to seeing your progress on this project.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Michael York
Thank you for the feedback and those nice reference images!

I scaled both photos and, assuming 6x8 external dimensions for the journal boxes, my transoms (and archbars) were 2" too tall.  Similarly, they were 2" too close together.  I modified them based on those nice photos.   I'll still have to get to the journal lids and springs...I see what you mean about the single spring!

I can re-scale the 12t trucks to Sn3.  Because I created an HOn3 version, I can scale that up pretty easily without running afoul of the print limitations.  It's typically shrinking parts designed for O-scale where things get painful.  I design my parts with a little FoS for the printer which just so happens to make shrinking to S scale ok, usually.  I never make the tie bars to-scale because they wouldn't print!

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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Michael York
Also, part of the reason why I created the waycar running gear was that my dad has one of the old Don Winter kits, and when I wanted to build my way car, I had to create all of the parts in styrene.  I decided that we really needed options other than brass cars, especially to create all the variations, and I wanted to build a few as well (I haven't since the first one!).

I'm glad you enjoyed it!  Thank you for the compliments.  The only application I've made of those is a 1:20.3 version which I modified for D&RG!
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

John Greenly
In reply to this post by Michael York
Michael,
it's great that you are doing this!  I need some of the type C/UP  trucks in HO scale, if you can do it.  I would probably use 8 pairs.

I could use Kaydee wheelsets.  The pointed axles are .640" long point-to-point.  The  cone of the point is about .050" long and goes to .060" diameter, so the cone half-angle is 30 degrees.    It's .505" from  the outside face of one wheel to the other.  

I can't be the only person making cars in HOn3 that need these trucks...  am I?

thanks,
John Greenly
Lansing, NY
John Greenly
Lansing, NY
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Michael York
Looking very good, Michael!

Much more prototypically correct than my solution. I can junk my white metal side frames/bolsters and use the wheel sets for your printed trucks. The two tie rods can probably be added to the final primed print using 0.010 or 0.015 styrene rod, above and below the circular cut out. NBW castings on the outside of the transoms could likely be added, too.

The single visible spring reminds me of the Maine common bolster side frames, used on the 2 footers.

Even for folks modeling later eras in Sn3 or HOn3, these trucks could be used under 27 foot outfit cars (see folios in files section) and Litchfield flats used in MOW service:

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/78391



Would make a beautiful model. Note the original 12 ton Litchfield trucks have been replaced with the 14 ton "type C" trucks by this date.

The type "C truck" in either S or O scales would be correct for Bill Merredith's laser cut 27 foot boxcar: https://leadvilledesigns.com/


PS -- for those interested in Michael's printed stuff: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/oahurailway
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Todd Hackett
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Here's a photo of some early trucks taken in Pine (UP/DL&G boxcar 24415 on the left, gondola 3252 on the right):


And some better close-ups of the trucks in the ca. 1902 photo Jim posted:


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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Robert McFarland
In reply to this post by Michael York
I pay by money order only.Is there any way I can order any of your shapeways parts? I plan to buy. some Litchfield trucks in the near future
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Michael York
Thank you for the additional photos and pointing out those nuts on the transoms!  Now I realize that those are tie bars in front of the top and bottom of transom casting!  I added those and the spring from the Colorado Central trucks.



Not yet ready for the test print, it's coming along.    I'll do the Sn3 and HOn3 versions.  I have one of the old BTS (or Clear Creek models?) 27' boxcar kits which could use these trucks.  My very first narrow gauge model is an HOn3 South Park flatcar I built in high school which could use a pair of the Litchfield trucks.  

This is distracting me from building the Colorado Central Porter, but I think it is timely and a nice change of pace.

Robert:  you just order them from the Shapeways website.  I don't sell, produce, or ship them...I just design them, test print, and Shapeways takes care of the orders.
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Jim Courtney
Looking very, very good, Michael!

And I noticed that you caught the fact that the circular cutout in the center plate is not centered vertically, but displaced upward a bit.

But you did forget the little safety chains, as in Todd's enlargement, that keep the journal lids from getting lost . . . (sarc/).

Seriously, though, I don't think the journal lids were hinged at the top, rather they slid upward to be removed for repacking. The lids seem to be held in place by vertical brackets that are attached to the front of the journal box itself. Don't know if that detail would even register in a final print.




You have no idea how much time you are going to save me in fabricating the center plates from styrene bits and pieces, four per car at that. And even then end up with transoms too tall.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

John Greenly
This post was updated on .
Michael,  

I'll second Jim's excitement about these trucks!  Your drawing is looking really excellent to my eye.  

The Clear Creek HOn3 kits- yes, one of the cars I need the trucks for is a 27' boxcar that I made using one of those old kits for a lot of the parts except the brakes.  Their detail parts made up into a nice model, and it'll be great to finally get the correct trucks under it!

 

I have one of their kits for a Tiffany reefer that I'll be inspired to build when I have trucks for it, too.  And then there's a flanger I want to make, and a couple of the interesting 2- and 3-board coal cars....

As much as I love to make one of something from scratch,   producing a dozen or more trucks is something else entirely.  Speaking of that,  how about  a C&S locomotive standard wooden pilot assembly...  I need at least four of them, have been puzzling about how to do that.

Thanks!!
John
John Greenly
Lansing, NY
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

SteveG
In reply to this post by John Greenly
I could use ten pairs of these trucks in HOn3, in addition to John's request.

Best regards,
Steve Guty
Lakeway, TX
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Alex Hois
In reply to this post by John Greenly
John,
You're not alone.

Michael,
Thank you for the good work, I'm in for 5 pairs in HOn3.

Alex
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Paul R.
In reply to this post by John Greenly
Micheal,
I will join the group I would like 10 pr in HO and S please when you are ready I will order through shapeways. Paul R.
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Michael York
OK, I think I see what you mean with brackets to allow the journal lids to slide into place.  It's a bit like a (very) cheap knockoff on the Hewitt lid (Pat'd 1877).



I checked my HOn3 Type A/Litchfield/12t truck with a pair of Kadee wheelsets...boy are those things big!  Now, I remember why I didn't offer that one before!  I had the same issue with the Carter passenger car truck in HOn3 (only worse since those were designed for 24" wheels).

Here's what it looks like before I start selectively compressing (and expanding!) the trucks...



It would be nice to get some test prints ordered by this weekend.  I do not have any Sn3 wheelsets, so someone else will have to be the guinea pig on those...but let's actually make sure I get them right before anyone orders a bunch.  Little mistakes happen...
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Jim Courtney
Absolutely gorgeous, Michael.

Will you be doing test prints of both the Litchfield and UP trucks at the same time??

Consider me the Sn3 guinea pig.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Ron Rudnick
In reply to this post by Michael York
I have the photo of coal car 4637 and flat car 1049 and have studied it numerous times.
From which I have concluded that the two trucks are of different sizes, with the coal car truck a little longer, like maybe 4' 6"
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
Duh . . . how could I miss something that obvious.

Hold the 3-D presses, Michael, Ron is correct.

At first I wondered if the type C truck was longer than 4'-0" wheelbase, or was the Litchfield truck shorter than thought.

The best directly right angle view of the type C truck, with the least skew, is that under the flanger.
Assuming 26" diameter wheels, the proportion of wheel base to truck diameter, by my measure = 2.1183.
That would yield a significantly longer wheel base, almost exactly 4'-7".

OK, other folks get out your calipers and measure and check my math. John Greenly this is your forte.

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to have UP 14 ton trucks in all the major modeling scale, so lets make sure we help Michael get it right.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Rick Steele
What are you talking about Jim?

I can print those for you.

It's not once in a lifetime... unless you're a shrew....

I use a Formlabs 3 SLA printer.

Rick
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Re: Type C/UP trucks

Robert McFarland
In reply to this post by Robert McFarland
Are there any phone numbers and contact information that I could talk with Shapeways about payment terms?
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