Quantcast

Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
15 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Mike Trent
Rick, you may know the answer to my question off the top of your head. I guess it matters to me now, after all these years, becuase I have been giving more thought to actual operations through Dickey, now that I can actually do something that represents those operations on my small area here in my little "Man spare bedroom". Too small for sure to ever be considered a cave.

Passenger service between Denver and Leadville on the mainline was Train No.70 Westbound, and Train No.71 Eastbound. Rob Smith sent me a photocopy of at least part of the 1922 Schedule. That schedule shows different train numbers for the same trains between Dickey and Dillon. Train No.'s 88 and 89 connecting to the "Westward" No.70 (Monday Wednesday Friday), and Train No.'s 86 and 87 connecting to the "Eastward" No.71 (Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday).

As an aside, it is interesting to note that the complete round trip between Dickey and Dillon, 2.7 miles. is only 20 minutes, at an average speed of 16.2 MPH. Rounded to 15MPH and covering a distance of 2.5 miles, it is interesting to note that a train traveling at 60MPH would cover five miles in five minutes. The same train traveling at 30MPH would cover the same five miles in 10 minutes, and the same train travelling at 15MPH would cover that same five miles in 20 minutes at exactly the same amount of time as the schedule indicates. Two things are immediately clear. First, there was no time other than to throw off a mail bag at Dillon, and take on whatever might need to be loaded at Dillon. There was a wye at Keystone, but Keystone was another 4.2 miles up the line. So Trains 86 87, 88, and 89 were not turned, but almost immediately were backed to Dickey, and in the same exact way they arrived. The Westward #70 would have pulled to the front of the abandoned ticket office at the Dickey Depot for the Register to be signed upon arrival, and the register at Dillon would also have been signed. The Easward #71 would have traveled straight through to Dillon on the back leg of the wye behind the Dickey Depot, and then after transferring mail and passengers and signing the register, backed onto the main again upon return to Dickey. Then, proceeding Eastward on the Main line again, the train would stop at the side of the depot to sign the register before heading on to Breckenridge. The timetable indicates "Stop" as I have indicated, for the purpose of signing the register at Dickey.

The train register box, by the way, is visible between the door and the window on the south side of the depot, visible in the header photo on this page.

So now to my question. In Boulder, growing up as a kid on the "North End", our mail and passenger trains were No.'s 29 and 30. We also had "local" freight service, which handled the switching along the line, and regular scheduled freight trains i both directions, No's 77 and 78. So the question of the day is, were the "scheduled" freight trains which travelled "twice a week" in both directions over a four day period assigned train numbers, or were they considered "Extra" trains, identified by the road engines and helpers?  

The attached photo was taken before I had worked out the particulars of how the trains traveled through Dickey. In this case, "Eastward" Train No. 71 os posed at the Dickey Depot after having BACKED to Dillon, and is now headed nose first past the depot 20 minutes later. This would possibly have been a more common occurance in warm weather, not so much if they had to plow up into Dillon. That picture looks pretty cold with a promise of snow to me. Taken Thanksgiving Day, right here in Dickey.  

       
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Rick Steele
In answer to your question, Mike,

If a train was scheduled by timetable and was assigned a train number it was not an extra train. It would be either first, second or third class. The class distinctions being assigned by the individual railroad.

Extra Trains mean just that. These are trains that are run IN ADDITION to the regularly scheduled trains. For example, Train 86 would be run according to timetable. Any extra trains run would have to get in the clear for any scheduled trains. This is in Train Order territory. This was also the prevalent operating system when I hired out before it was done away with about 20 years ago.

Trains were classified according to Right, Class and Direction.

Right was conferred by Train order. For example, if a train was too long to clear in a particular siding for a meet, the order would read "Extra C&S 60 West has right over train 70 east Bailey to Long Meadow. This means that regular train 70 would have to take siding for Extra C&S 60 and not leave the siding at Long Meadow until Extra 60 had passed them.

Class is just what it says, First Class is superior to Second Class which is superior to Third Class and they are all Superior to Extras. Class is conferred by Timetable.

Direction, if two First Class trains are to meet on line, who takes the siding? Let's say that the timetable has a note that says "Westbound trains are Superior to Eastbound Trains". That will answer your question right there.

Now there is one other thing that you have to watch for but you will only find this in an Employee Time Table (not a public one). Those are the times indicated in BOLD PRINT Why? Simple, the bold print indicates where one train is scheduled to meet another, usually East and West Bound.

I think that by now you should be thoroughly confused, so ask me any other questions that you wish. I used to live with this stuff on a daily basis, and I've probably forgotten something.

Rick
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Mike Trent
Thanks Rick, that probably does clear and muddle things I really haven't considered yet.

What I was wondering is if you know if the freights that ran four times a week between Denver and Leadville were assigned numbers in the way that Scheduled Freights #77-78 were on the Broad Gauge?

Or, would they have been considered as "extra", despite the fact that they ran on scheduled days and not particularly scheduled times? How would they have appeared in the register? By road engine number or  by just something like "WB Freight"?

Thanks
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Rick Steele
If the Leadville Freights were scheduled, they'd appear in the timetable.

If they ran extra than they are definitely identified by their Road Locomotive Number. After all, the Passenger Train had to positively identify the freight and without any way to do it, like locomotive number, it could have been anything. A work extra, perhaps, and they could take the main and run smack dab into the freight.

Rick
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

John Schapekahm
nice tutorial Rick !!!
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Mike Trent
In reply to this post by Rick Steele


Thanks Rick. I haven't seen anything other than the "First Class" designated passenger trains in what I have from the timetable. I wonder if any of the old Register books are still around? I had heard that CRRM has a lot old C&S documents. I'll try to see what might be available next trip out that way.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Rick Steele
Hi Mike,

If you look at the Pictorial Supplement, there is a 1904 reprint of the Clear Creek Lines in the end pocket.

It shows freights listed as Second Class trains, with assigned train numbers. You might want to get one of the CRRM timetable reprints that are a bit older than 1922.

By the end (1922) with no freights designated by timetable, they would all be run as extra trains. Direction still applies and all Westbound trains are Superior to Eastbound trains on the South Park and Clear Creek Lines. Extra Trains are designated by the Road Locomotive Number and direction. For Example, a Denver to Leadville freight would be given the orders "C&S 58 West run extra Denver to Como". The authority of that train only extends between those two points. To go on from Como to Leadville, another set of Train Orders would have to be issued. If there were meets to be made, there would be orders also included which would state "Meet C&S extra 60 east at Bailey's". If there were slow orders, they would state "Do not exceed 10 mph M.P 50.5 to MP 55.25".

Rick
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Keith Hayes
Thanks, Rick and Mike. This is most helpful information.

For those following along, the 1922 timetable referenced is reprinted in the rear of Klinger's "C&S High Line Memories and Then Some." The time table features a host of nuggets in addition to the operating tips noted by Rick. It also indicates the capacity of sidings (500 cars at Como, 188 at Dickey, 45 at Dillon and 717 at Leadville), facilies (coal, water, wye, ticket office), office hours and distance to Denver. Also of note, most locations are noted as flag stops (f) as opposed to time stops (Como, Boreas, Breck, Dickey. Kokomo, Climax, Leadville). Time stops do not appear to always coincide with water stops.

I think it would be most useful if someone would be willing to scan a C&S employee timetable, along with the rules and tonnage ratings, and post it in the 'files' section for our mutual reference.
Keith Hayes
Leadville in Sn3
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Rick Steele
Keith,

Timed stops would not coincide with water stops as taking on water was built in to the schedule and expected by the operating department to be part of the train's travel time between point "A" and point "B". Yes, I know that it can take one heckuva lot longer than 10 or 15 minutes to take on water in the winter, but any opposing traffic would have to remain in the clear until the Superior trains rear end was clear of the Inferior trains Head end.

I have some old charts that I made concerning Tonnage Ratings, Car Tonnage and Grades. I'll see if I can find them, post them and save everyone here one helluva lot of work.

Rick
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Keith Hayes
Thanks, Rick. I look forward to reviewing the posted materials!
Keith Hayes
Leadville in Sn3
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Mike Trent
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Rick Steele
Rick, would helpers running light operate without orders?

My Dad told me that Southbound freights would add a helper at Ft Collins, as the ruling grade to Denver was Burke's Hill East of Boulder. When they had a helper through Boulder the train would appear in the register, as an example, "Extra #914-#913 Coupled South" all the way to Denver. If the helper returned to Ft Collins, where there was an enginehouse very much like the one at Dickey, it traveled as "Extra #913 running light". If this practice were followed on the NG, which I would assume it was, the train register at Dickey for a single day would show two or three extra engines light, followed by an extra, and then a departure of one extra showing all locomotives coupled. Then they would show the same in Como, as all helpers were cut off at Boreas, as an Eastbound example.

This being the case, the night of the wreck on Boreas, the helpers #73 and #75 would have appeared as "Extra #73-#75 Coupled East w/car flanger", followed by "Extra #537 East".

Make sense? Seems like it does to me. Sure would be interesting to spend a few hours with even a single register book from Como or Dickey. Or anywhere up there.



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Rick Steele
Helpers would absolutely not run light without orders. The orders would read very much like your Dad showed you.

The train had to have orders to run light between, say Extra C&S 58 run light Kenosha and to Como.

You have to understand that all trains affected by the movement would have copies of this order in order to protect their trains as well.

The order for the plow train that you mentioned could have read "Work Extra C&S No. 72 and C&S No.  75. Working between Breckenridge and Como. Not protecting against other trains.

The consist made absolutely no difference. A work extra would be authorized to move East or West on their given stretch of track as is necessary. Not protecting against other trains would relieve the Brakemen from flagging to the rear. It was necessary for the other trains to protect against them.

Rick
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Mike Trent
Thanks Rick.

I appreciate getting this far with our understanding of how this should be done. And was done.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Darel Leedy
Administrator
Fascinating information fellas. For obvious reasons Mike, I will be very interested in the operating scheme you develop.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Train No.'s on the C&S NG and a few words on Dickey/Dillon Passenger service

Jimmy Blouch
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
There are several Dickey train registers around somewhere.
Though I must admit I am not sure where.
At one time, several years ago, one was on display at the Silver Plume depot.  With Lindsey gone that may be no longer the case.
It is possible CRRM may have some but where "filed" would be a question.

Jimmy Blouch
Loading...