The C&S Coal Chutes: Pine, Como, Dickey, Pitkin and almost Breckenridge

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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

Chris Walker
Jeff Young wrote
The lead tracks into the roundhouse appear to be salvaged, so presumably this is post-abandonment?  (Did they really abandon a coal car on the trestle?)
Jeff, think more along the lines of a strategic withdrawal!

The scrapper would have decided to remove rails from all secondary tracks leaving only those tracks that are needed to support the scrapping operation until the very last as they pulled up the rails out of town.  As the Locos still needed fuel and to be turned to get the various loads of scrap rails back up over Kenosha before the final withdrawal.  I'd think they would have made several turns to the top before they got a full trainload.  They would also need access to the turntable until the bridge was jacked up and moved away if it went out by rail.
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

Chris Walker
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Jim,
the requirements for the amount of coal and number of refills varied with location, Dickey being the prime example with steep grades in either direction(just not out of town immediately), multiple larger helpers on each train.  Pine Grove most likely was needed Westbound(upgrade) only. (excursion turns excepted?)  

Notice that in the photo of #60 that I posted, it's loading at the smaller bin.  I suspect this would also be useful to supply a smaller charge even if the Tender coalbunker could hold more, the amount of coal used on a Passenger train would be way less than a drag Freight.
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Chris Walker
 "They would also need access to the turntable until the bridge was jacked up and moved away if it went out by rail."




Both images, A.A. Anderson Collection, in the Klingers' Highline Memories . . . , page 93.

Looks like number 69 and a flat car did the honors.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Just so our friend Keith isn't left out, here is an admittedly poor photograph of the (ahem) tiny one-pocket coal chute at Leadville:


A.A. Anderson photo, in the Klingers' Highline Memories . . . , page 229.

Though this is mid-1940s standard gauge C&S Leadville, was the same device used to coal narrow gauge locomotives in the 1930s??
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

John Schapekahm
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

John Schapekahm
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Ten Bins? Twelve Bins?

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by John Schapekahm
Wow, I love this kind of thread! New information pops up every hour or so!

Don't you think someone must have mis-counted at Dickey in 1909?  How'd the C&S loose two coal pockets there by the 1930s?

Given the information about the Como coal pockets (now it's 10?) I've had to retitle the original thread for the third time.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Ten Bins? Twelve Bins?

Jim Courtney
Another view of the Leadville "coal pocket" for Keith, this time better focused:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/82951/rec/28
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Ten Bins? Twelve Bins?

Jim Courtney
I didn't realize how few photos there are of the Pitkin coal chutes.  Many photographs from atop the chutes, but next to none of the chutes themselves.

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/10179/rec/753


The photo dates to about 1901-1902 and the coal chutes in the distance are new.  I don't see a roof on the structure, perhaps a coal car in front of the bins.



The following Curtis view is c1903-1905, looking east toward Alpine Pass:


H.L. Curtis Photo - James Ehernberger Collection, in the Klingers' South Park's Gunnison Division Memories . . . , page 241.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Ten Bins? Twelve Bins?

Chris Walker
I think that last view was also in the Pict. Supt to DSP&P,  the elevated view in proximity to the tracks enticed many a photographer to stand atop for their pictures; just dig that drop-end Coalcar.

There was an earlier thread on Pitkin and the Coalingchutes, that may fill some gaps.
http://c-sn3-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Pitkin-City-Como-Could-use-some-help-tp3041.html

UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Ten Bins? Twelve Bins?

Keith Hayes
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
You guys are swell for thinking od Leadville. My plan is a couple long bins.
Keith Hayes
Leadville in Sn3
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

Todd Hackett
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Como:


Here's a close-up of the builder's plate on chute 9. Greg Kazel borrowed the original negative from Kindig, and we looked very carefully at this on the negative using a magnifier. The name is Williams, White & Co Moline ILL. They are still in business (website). I remember someone contacting them to see if they had any records of these old coal trestles, but they didn't seem to have any records that old.






Dickey (I'm not positive about the first, but the second is definitely Dickey):




Pine:




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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

Jim Courtney
Incredible photos, Todd, thanks for adding them to this thread.

That first photo at Como is certainly the money shot!  Wonder what the guy sticking his head out of the small window at upper left is doing?  The latches on the tops of the coal apron doors seem different from those at Pine or Dickey.

And I agree, both photos appear to me, to be Dickey.  All that Blue River valley sagebrush in the foreground is unique to that area around Dickey and Dillon.

And the second photo at Pine is one that I've never seen before--that string of coal cars, doing what they're suppose to do, is certainly impressive.

Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

Chris Walker
Jim Courtney wrote
Wonder what the guy sticking his head out of the small window at upper left is doing?
I'd say getting some fresh air after all that coal dust swirling around inside the Shed choked him!  

Note that there are Square top doors on the North-end of the Shed whereas IF there had been doors on the ramp-end, then those would have had clipped outer-edge corners.  Is Jim Powers of Denver still alive? He would be interested to see this, I'm sure.

And back to Pine Grove for a look at the Ash-pit located on the leg of the Wye.


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/3681/rv/singleitem/rec/2
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

Jeff Young
Wow, cracking photos there Todd.  I just love the first one of Como with the numbers visible on the chute doors.

Cheers,
Jeff.
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

Mike Trent
Administrator
Excellent thread, and information.

I can't offer any photographs, but I can offer some relevant comments.

1) The mechanical loader pictured at Leadville is a Red Devil. The D&RGW used these at both Alamosa and Antonito after the elevated pocket loaders were removed in later years at both locations.

2) I believe it to be very possible that at one time there were 14 pockets at Dickey. These were probably reconfigured or replaced in the early 20's to allow larger pockets to service the newer and larger locomotives. All of the 12 pockets at Dickey in later years are of the same style and capacity as what appear to be the two pockets added on to the Pine facility in later years.

3) Note in the photo of #76 at Dickey, that the chute is lined with either sheet iron or tin.

4) It bears mentioning that these pockets, while all had fairly high maximum capacity, some were designated for containing much lower tonnage. The tenders of the Moguls had a smaller tonnage capacity in their bunkers than most of the consolidations, and far smaller tonnage capacity than those of the B-4-F class, and #537 after it's tender was widened. Those pockets designated for light loads were marked with boards nailed to the insides which were used to mark the level above which they were not to be filled. I am sure I have seen a photograph taken at Pine which shows an enormous pile of coal on the far side of the track from the pocket which was obviously caused because a small engine was either spotted at the wrong pocket for loading, or someone had mistakenly overloaded a pocket. Either way, once the catch was released, there was no stopping the contents from dropping.

5) Interesting to note the tonnage rating for the pockets at all the locations which Ken posted. Bear in mind that the rated capacity of coal gons at full tonnage is 50,000 lbs. which is 25 tons. The ramps of all the elevated tipples appear to be designed for three loaded gons maximum, with very little space for stopping. The ramp at Dickey was built for four gons, which would deliver 100 tons. The picture Todd posted from the back side at Pine Grove shows six fully loaded gons spotted, awaiting their turn. Also very interesting to note the listed capacities of the old platforms, which contained a world of coal in reserve. The 2096 tons of coal listed at Dickey alone would represent the equivalent of 84 loaded gons, only four of which were in the tipple pockets. And that doesn't count loaded gons in the yard awaiting unloading. For modelers, even in HOn3 scale, crushing that much coal could give you a touch of Black Lung. Not to mention the mess. I do have plans to build a 3' coaling platform (144' in 1/4") which will really go a long way toward conveying the feel of what Dickey once was. I'll probably have to fend off the EPA to do it. No wonder the roster shows as any coal gons as boxcars.      

6) It is my understanding that the guys who were hired to do all of the shoveling to keep the coal moving were local men, hired as General Labor, not necessarily railroad employees. At Como, many of the guys who worked the tipples were either off duty enginemen, and their sons. And cousins, and next door neighbors. Times were hard, work was scarce, and the labor was backbreaking.

Any way you look at it, there is no way to disguise the terrible hardships and misery that were just accepted as everyday life, not all that long ago.  
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

Mike Trent
Administrator
OK, I did find one.

Dickey today..... Train #71, topped off the bunker Eastbound. Should be rolling through Waterton on time later, Norm.


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what might have been (*sigh*) ...

John Schapekahm
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

Bill Uffelman
In reply to this post by Mike Trent

Very nice. Can I still get a ticket to Waterton?
8^))

Bill Uffelman Ocean View DE 

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Mike Trent [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum]
OK, I did find one.

Dickey today..... Train #71, topped off the bunker Eastbound. Should be rolling through Waterton on time later, Norm.





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Re: The C&S Coal Chutes: Four bins? Six Bins? Eight Bins? Twelve Bins?

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
Thanks for all the additional information, Mike, and for sharing another photo of your Dickey coal trestle.

The reponse to my original post has been quite gratifying.  I've had many a question about the C&S coal trestles, that I've wondered about for thirty years, and many have been answered by you folks in less than 72 hours.

Now let's fine tune the history a bit further, if we can.

The new C&S managment built the coal trestles at Schwanders (8-pockets) in 1900 and at Pitkin (6 pockets) in 1901.  They were strategically well located to coal all the helpers stationed on both sides of Alpine Tunnel (Schwanders also serviced eastbound helpers over Trout Creek Pass).  They turned out to be bad investments, as the Trumbull management could not foresee the coming CB&Q ownership and the abandonment of both the Alpine and Trout Creek lines in a mere decade.

But when did the coaling trestles at those two stations cease to function?

Specifically:

1. Did the Chalk Creek Mixed run, from Buena Vista to Romeley/Hancock, continue to coal its locomotive at the Schwanders pockets or was coaling done by hand in Buena Vista?

2. After the D&RG assumed operation of the Gunnison to Pitkin segment (in the swap for its Blue River branch), did the D&RG use the coaling trestle at Pikin?  Would it be prototypically correct to coal D&RG C-16s at the Pitkin coal bins in the 1920s?
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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