Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Jim Courtney
Absolutely beautiful, Konrad.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Jeff Young
Indeed, well done!
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Don Gustavson II
Very nice.
HOn3 is the path I have chosen.
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Keith Hayes
In reply to this post by Konrad Schreier
Sweet!

(Not to start a fire, but could the Midland car have been mint green? We suppose to know the hardware is black, and the drop shadows and ends are red. We believe the background for the Indian to be white...are there other colors in the Indian poster to compare to?)
Keith Hayes
Leadville in Sn3
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Konrad Schreier
RE: St Charles reefer:

I have laid that out on the wood, but there is a conflict in available information on the car's length.   Anybody able to reconcile the difference between the C&S folio car-body length dimension and the available plans?  There is like a 1 foot difference (roughly 29' (plans) vs 30' 3" (folio))

I'd guess I'd go with the Folio 27 dimensions. Both the St Charles boxcar classes, built in 1897 and 1898, show body lengths of 30'-3" over the end sheathing. I doubt any of these cars survived to be measured by a railfan like John Maxwell.  

So, I'd go by the record made by the C&S Car Department--presumably people could use tape measures accurately in the early 20th century.

Can't wait for the next installment of Konrad's On3 Reefer Madness!
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Keith Hayes
What we need is someone like Andrew Dodge or Bob Stears to opine. Or maybe CM Auditor can audit the CM paint files and clear this up for us.

I'd vote for an off-white or a very light grey, given AT&SF reefer conventions of the day.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
Well, the next installment's started.  

Don't laugh, but I really am using old fashioned wood kits for these - here is the starting point of the St. Charles car, a 36' truss rod reefer kit from Yea Olde Huff-n-Puff (http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/).  As a canvas to build on it works really well. As can be seen I have San Juan rigid trucks and some Coronado bits to use, and will order some more stuff.  



As you can see the first thing is to lay out the floor, which I have done, based on a 30' carbody length.  I think Jim has a point on the measurements, I noted some of the other cars in the folio drawings have some odd length dimensions as well, but 30' seems right. At least I hope that's right, cause once its cut I'm committed on length.

Konrad
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Bill Uffelman
Konrad who provided the instructions for modifying the kit for NG use?

Bill Uffelman 


On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Konrad Schreier [via C&Sng Discussion Forum]
Well, the next installment's started.  

Don't laugh, but I really am using old fashioned wood kits for these - here is the starting point of the St. Charles car, a 36' truss rod reefer kit from Yea Olde Huff-n-Puff (http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/).  As a canvas to build on it works really well. As can be seen I have San Juan rigid trucks and some Coronado bits to use, and will order some more stuff.  



As you can see the first thing is to lay out the floor, which I have done, based on a 30' carbody length.  I think Jim has a point on the measurements, I noted some of the other cars in the folio drawings have some odd length dimensions as well, but 30' seems right. At least I hope that's right, cause once its cut I'm committed on length.

Konrad


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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
Bill Uffelman wrote
Konrad who provided the instructions for modifying the kit for NG use?
Bill Uffelman 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
I wrote them myself Bill.    I had to think through the conversion - a few things are moving around- so I just did it in the form of a set of steps.   I plan to revise them if things change during the build (I am already thinking the way I trim out the eaves may get revised) but happy to share the draft.

Konrad
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Bill Uffelman
When it is convenient I for one would like to have the revision notes.

Bill Uffelman 


On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Konrad Schreier [via C&Sng Discussion Forum]
Bill Uffelman wrote
Konrad who provided the instructions for modifying the kit for NG use?
Bill Uffelman 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
I wrote them myself Bill.    I had to think through the conversion - a few things are moving around- so I just did it in the form of a set of steps.   I plan to revise them if things change during the build (I am already thinking the way I trim out the eaves may get revised) but happy to share the draft.

Konrad


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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
Bill:  

I can do that next week if you email off board.  I will be publishing the final version them here by the way.

Konrad
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Bill Uffelman
Thanks, no rush. I can wait until you post to the group.

Bill Uffelman 
Ufffam AT Yahoo DOT com


On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 10:29 AM, Konrad Schreier [via C&Sng Discussion Forum]
Bill:  

I can do that next week if you email off board.  I will be publishing the final version them here by the way.

Konrad


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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Robert Stears
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
I went with a canary yellow for the Colorado Midland Hanrahan reefer models I build (and am still building) because I read somewhere that this is how the car's colors were originally described in the press at 1897 delivery. This was a topic of discussion at the Colorado Midland convention in Leadville several years ago and the experts at the time seemed pretty firm on this topic. Plus, I like how the color scheme looks. By 1908 the CM Hanrahan reefers were repainted a freight car red with white lettering and the CM "target" logo.  

The "Indian" background was almost certainly white. The other colors of "Indian" I took from a 1900 CM pass in my collection. The "Indian" on the 1897 through 1902 CM Passes (as well as on CM eating house passes/business cards) looked identical to the "Indian" on the Hanrahan side broadsheet, except flipped. On all the CM passes the "Indian" faces left while on the CM Hanrahan reefer broadsides the "Indian' faces right.  

The decal "Indian" was scanned from my 1900 pass and then digitally flipped using the Corel Draw program. The lettering on the Indian's shield were then flipped by Doug Junda. The "Indian" decals were then printed as water slide decals by Cartograf of Italy. The other car lettering was designed by Bill Meredith using Corel Draw and printed by Rail Graphics, Inc.

Of note, there is very strong evidence that the first of Hanrahan reefers delivered to the CM had the "Indian" broadside painted (or otherwise applied) directly to the car side. Thus the car side scribing lines visible on the "Indian" broadside in the 1897 Colorado City photograph. The only other good photo of CM Hanrahan reefers is in the Smithsonian collection and shows the "Indian" broad side applied to a thin sheet of probable metal which was then nailed or screwed to the car side.

For my AT&SF Hanrahan models, I chose an antique white and roof brown for the colors with a very dark brown underside. These cars were described as being white by numerous contemporary sources. But, I have found that pure white (as well as pure black) on models tend to make a model seem unrealistic to the eye. Plus, again, I like the color combination I chose. I built (and still building) both versions of the AT&SF Hanrahan - both the refrigerator and ventilated refrigerator cars. By 1900, the AT&SF began rebuilding both types of Hanrahan reefers into single door "conventional" reefers. These rebuilt cars were also described many times as yellow or reefer yellow. Some survived into the 1930's as MOW cars or Ice cars. My P:48 AT&SF Hanrahan reefers will soon be mounted on newly arrived custom brass casting Thielsen trucks with Protocraft P:48 33" wheelsets.

Of course, so much of this color hue/shade/tint stuff is subjective and relative to the color theme of one's layout, the lighting and the "color scale" effect. I know what I like and what looks good with my other equipment and on my layout, but I also really enjoy seeing other modelers interpretations and getting to know what they like and find pleasing.

Although I am a South Park On3 narrow gauge guy, this foray into P:48 c.1900 model building has been great fun. The original purpose was to add some color and variety to my South Park narrow gauge fleet. That is, c. 1900 P:48 static models in the yard. This static model idea will probably change as I have recently acquired a P:48 converted c.1900 Ma & Pa brass engine which will be modeled as a CM locomotive c.1906.

I just need to finish up the last of these Hanrahan cars, finish up a couple UPD&G and CM boxcars, some CM stock cars and a couple CM cabooses and then back to the On3 for good.

As a side bar, almost all of these P:48 models have been laser cut in thin "Rowmark" acrylic from my Corel Draw designs. This allows me to rapidly build multiples of each model. I would be happy to share this model building technique with the group as desired.

Although basically a styrene model builder, I have also had models laser cut from my Corel Draw designs in basswood and thin plywood - I have a flock of CM, D&RG, RGW and C&S standard gauge P:48 Pullman Palace stock cars moving through the shop currently and getting back to my wood modeling origins has been great fun.

Regards,
Bob

CM Hanrahan reefer as delivered 1897
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Robert Stears
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
More P:48 Hanrahan models.





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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Bill Uffelman
In reply to this post by Robert Stears
Nice looking car and your mass production system sounds neat.

Bill Uffelman 


On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Robert Stears [via C&Sng Discussion Forum]
I went with a canary yellow for the Colorado Midland Hanrahan reefer models I build (and am still building) because I read somewhere that this is how the car's colors were originally described in the press at 1897 delivery. This was a topic of discussion at the Colorado Midland convention in Leadville several years ago and the experts at the time seemed pretty firm on this topic. Plus, I like how the color scheme looks. By 1908 the CM Hanrahan reefers were repainted a freight car red with white lettering and the CM "target" logo.  

The "Indian" background was almost certainly white. The other colors of "Indian" I took from a 1900 CM pass in my collection. The "Indian" on the 1897 through 1902 CM Passes (as well as on CM eating house passes/business cards) looked identical to the "Indian" on the Hanrahan side broadsheet, except flipped. On all the CM passes the "Indian" faces left while on the CM Hanrahan reefer broadsides the "Indian' faces right.  

The decal "Indian" was scanned from my 1900 pass and then digitally flipped using the Corel Draw program. The lettering on the Indian's shield were then flipped by Doug Junda. The "Indian" decals were then printed as water slide decals by Cartograf of Italy. The other car lettering was designed by Bill Meredith using Corel Draw and printed by Rail Graphics, Inc.

Of note, there is very strong evidence that the first of Hanrahan reefers delivered to the CM had the "Indian" broadside painted (or otherwise applied) directly to the car side. Thus the car side scribing lines visible on the "Indian" broadside in the 1897 Colorado City photograph. The only other good photo of CM Hanrahan reefers is in the Smithsonian collection and shows the "Indian" broad side applied to a thin sheet of probable metal which was then nailed or screwed to the car side.

For my AT&SF Hanrahan models, I chose an antique white and roof brown for the colors with a very dark brown underside. These cars were described as being white by numerous contemporary sources. But, I have found that pure white (as well as pure black) on models tend to make a model seem unrealistic to the eye. Plus, again, I like the color combination I chose. I built (and still building) both versions of the AT&SF Hanrahan - both the refrigerator and ventilated refrigerator cars. By 1900, the AT&SF began rebuilding both types of Hanrahan reefers into single door "conventional" reefers. These rebuilt cars were also described many times as yellow or reefer yellow. Some survived into the 1930's as MOW cars or Ice cars. My P:48 AT&SF Hanrahan reefers will soon be mounted on newly arrived custom brass casting Thielsen trucks with Protocraft P:48 33" wheelsets.

Of course, so much of this color hue/shade/tint stuff is subjective and relative to the color theme of one's layout, the lighting and the "color scale" effect. I know what I like and what looks good with my other equipment and on my layout, but I also really enjoy seeing other modelers interpretations and getting to know what they like and find pleasing.

Although I am a South Park On3 narrow gauge guy, this foray into P:48 c.1900 model building has been great fun. The original purpose was to add some color and variety to my South Park narrow gauge fleet. That is, c. 1900 P:48 static models in the yard. This static model idea will probably change as I have recently acquired a P:48 converted c.1900 Ma & Pa brass engine which will be modeled as a CM locomotive c.1906.

I just need to finish up the last of these Hanrahan cars, finish up a couple UPD&G and CM boxcars, some CM stock cars and a couple CM cabooses and then back to the On3 for good.

As a side bar, almost all of these P:48 models have been laser cut in thin "Rowmark" acrylic from my Corel Draw designs. This allows me to rapidly build multiples of each model. I would be happy to share this model building technique with the group as desired.

Although basically a styrene model builder, I have also had models laser cut from my Corel Draw designs in basswood and thin plywood - I have a flock of CM, D&RG, RGW and C&S standard gauge P:48 Pullman Palace stock cars moving through the shop currently and getting back to my wood modeling origins has been great fun.

Regards,
Bob

CM Hanrahan reefer as delivered 1897



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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Robert Stears
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
More P:48 Hanrahan cars

CM Hanrahan reefer as repainted 1906

CM Hanrahan reefer UNPTD

Colo. Midland former Hanrahan reefer rebuilt into ventilated vegetable car
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
Robert,

Those are some wonderful looking models, thanks for sharing the images!!!  Any thought of releasing a limited run of kits?  You have done some superb design work there.

Konrad

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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Robert Stears
Bob,

Beautiful, beautiful models!

I'm not trying to start an argument over CM reefer colors, as I know little about the Midland. I was just trying to reconcile Konrad's notion that yellow reefers should look dark, with the 1897 photo of the CM reefer at Colorado City, when (supposedly) orthochromic film stock/plates were all that was available.

I really like the off white of your AT&SF Hanrahan reefers--and I could envision the Midland reefer, as delivered, painted in the same colors with the lettering as on your yellow car, Ute Indian and all.

Of course, so much of this color hue/shade/tint stuff is subjective and relative to the color theme of one's layout, the lighting and the "color scale" effect. I know what I like and what looks good with my other equipment and on my layout, but I also really enjoy seeing other modelers interpretations and getting to know what they like and find pleasing.

Right on!  If there is written historical documentation as to color, then that should be our guide to building accurate (as humanly possible) models. But much of what we are about is individually interpreting Colorado history in On3, Sn3 or HOn3--like Konrad's beautiful interpretation of the rebuilt Tiffany reefer.

I really enjoy your interpretation of history, and hope you will share more of your proto-O scale models with us, whether standard or narrow gauge. I think your reefer photos fit in well in this thread, as the Midland was part of the C&S family in the first decade of the 20th century. And the Midland was the most "narrow gauge" standard gauge railroad that I know!

As a side bar, almost all of these P:48 models have been laser cut in thin "Rowmark" acrylic from my Corel Draw designs. This allows me to rapidly build multiples of each model. I would be happy to share this model building technique with the group as desired.

I would love to learn of your techniques. And I'll bet Darel would love an article, with illustrations of your models, as a main blog posting.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Robert Stears
Thanks very much. More to come.
Bob

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 3, 2017, at 12:36 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Bob,

Beautiful, beautiful models!

I'm not trying to start an argument over CM reefer colors, as I know little about the Midland. I was just trying to reconcile Konrad's notion that yellow reefers should look dark, with the 1897 photo of the CM reefer at Colorado City, when (supposedly) orthochromic film stock/plates weren't yet available.

I really like the off white of your AT&SF Hanrahan reefers--and I could envision the Midland reefer, as delivered, painted in the same colors with the lettering as on your yellow car, Ute Indian and all.

Of course, so much of this color hue/shade/tint stuff is subjective and relative to the color theme of one's layout, the lighting and the "color scale" effect. I know what I like and what looks good with my other equipment and on my layout, but I also really enjoy seeing other modelers interpretations and getting to know what they like and find pleasing.

Right on!  If there is written historical documentation as to color, then that should be our guide to building accurate (as humanly possible) models. But much of what we are about is individually interpreting Colorado history in On3, Sn3 or HOn3--like Konrad's beautiful interpretation of the rebuilt Tiffany reefer.

I really enjoy your interpretation of history, and hope you will share more of your proto-O scale models with us, whether standard or narrow gauge. I think your reefer photos fit in well in this thread, as the Midland was part of the C&S family in the first decade of the 20th century.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA



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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
Here are the first steps in creating the On3 St. Charles car body from the O scale Mainline Models kit.  Starting with the floor, the excess length and width are removed, to create a correctly dimensioned subfloor.  The important thing to remember when laying out the part is to take into account the thickness of the scribed siding, which can vary.  In my kit the ends are nominal 1/32 material, while the sides are 1/16" stock.  Stack up 2 pieces of each and measure the thickness with your dial caliper, then subtract that from the final dimension you are going for (7' 9" x 30' 3" in scale).  Lay out the part slightly oversize and cut the floor to length with a razor saw and a square (or a miter box if you have one large enough).  Next, again using the rule from your square to guide your saw (placing the rule on the part, so any wandering in the cut will be in the scrap), remove the excess width.  Sand to final dimensions.  Save the scrap, it will be recycled later in the build.

A word on tools.   With apologies to the many of the members will doubtless already know this, I will comment on the need for quality measuring tools when building or converting craftsman type kits.  Micro Mark and other tool sellers offer a variety of dial calipers, and if you do not have one, once you do have one you will find it hard to imagine not having one.  The same goes for quality squares.

Once you have correctly sized the subfloor, you need to add the framing.  But first, if you are going to add a board floor, that is the next step.  Though it will be hard to see, rather than scribed material, I opted to add an individual board floor to my car, using some old stripwood from the scrap box.  After cutting the boards and testing them for fit they came up short, so I mixed in some strip wood cut from some scraps of 1/32 veneer.  In a happy accident the slight difference in thickness of the mixed materials produced some stepping in the floor that adds some visual interest and avoids the mechanical look of scribed material.

After the floor in in place you need to add the car frame.  I used scale dimensional material for this from my wood rack, with 5"x 8" end beams, 4"x 8" center and side sill beams and 4'x 6" intermediate beams.  As I am using Coronado Models brass Sams couplers, I fitted those to my center and end beams, notching the parts appropriately to produce the correct coupler face distance from the finished car ends.  

In the following image you can see the floor assembly in process with the framing beams and removed scrap alongside.  The board floor looks a little clunky because I had to use some photo correction software to sharpen the image for clarity of the other details.



Next up will be assembly of the subroof and the combination of the roof, floor and end blocks to complete the car body core.

Please don't hesitate to lob in comments or questions,

Konrad
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