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Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
Thanks Lee,  I am painting the car this weekend, and worked up a custom mix C&S red and a"1900" yellow, we shall see how they come out šŸ™‚

Konrad
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Jeff Young
I can't wait to see it out of the paint shop!

Is the "1900" yellow the darker one with a hint of orange?

Cheers,
Jeff.
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
Jeff -

Researching yellow pigments, I found this:

http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/intro/yellows.html

Basically, you can see that strong chromic yellows existed in 19th and early 20th centuries.  The St. Charles cars were known to be "Canary Yellow" (a paint still produced by many makers, and which matches the color of canaries still produced by Mother Nature).  Canary Yellow to me is evocative of Lemmon Yellow, possibly with some cadmium yellow, and both are pigments available in 1900.  I have assumed the Tiffany rebuilds were the same color - railroads do things like that šŸ™‚  My first coat dried a little too Lemmon Yellow, so I am going to increase the intensity of the yellow in the second coat and try for more Canary Yellow.  I have to say, all this painting and repainting yellow is for the birds.  

The dark color of the reefer carsides in period images are the product of orthochromatic film (which does not register yellow, leaving those areas of the negative clear (the emulsion not having reacted) so they look very dark when printed as a positive on photo paper).  See also, my earlier post on this in your Reefer Madness thread IIRC.  

The St. Charles image above looks like they made the car up with white appear over the yellows it would photograph as a light color in the makers image.  Not sure where I can get a camera and a roll of orthochromatic film, but it would be interesting to experiment with.  Wonder if there is a digital orthochromatic filter?

Konrad
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
Okay Konrad,

This is a new idea for me, challenging my "conventional wisdom" about early C&S rolling stock.

You're saying all yellows, from lemon to chrome to cadmium, will appear dark on orthochromic film stock?  Does this mean we don't have to hypothesize orange Tiffany and SUF reefers?

The St. Charles image above looks like they made the car up with white appear over the yellows it would photograph as a light color in the makers image.

This at first seemed absurd to me, but then again:





For the St Charles reefers, there are written records that the car sides were painted "Canary Yellow", which should render a darker gray in the builder's photo if Konrad's theory is correct. Perhaps the big reefer's sides are covered in white paper, with the road name and reporting marks stenciled on the paper, for the "official" builders photo!  I can't make out any hint of grooved board siding, or even seams at the door edges.  Were the grab irons white washed as well?  

I suppose one car could have had the sides temporarily painted white for photographic purposes, including a full set of lettering, then repainted yellow after the photo.  But the car in the photo has already been loaded on a standard gauge flat car and braced, ready for shipment to Colorado.  What do others think of this notion?

And is this re-painted (but not yet rebuilt) Tiffany yellow or orange?





Perhaps this "colorized" photo is accurate after all:





Wow, we're back to interpreting colors from black & white photos again!
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Robert McFarland
In reply to this post by Konrad Schreier
Lemmon Yellow can only be found in northwestern SouthDakota.
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
Robert McFarland wrote
Lemmon Yellow can only be found in northwestern SouthDakota.
šŸ¤”
And a very attractive yellow it is Robert šŸ˜‰  Sadly discontinued by most makers though, it being too close to Lemon Yellow, and way too far away from everything else  šŸ˜

Konrad
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

South Park
  Lemon curry ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKhit2nsoq4
"Duty above all else except Honor"
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Robert McFarland
Lemmon,South Dakota on the old Milwaukee Road(now BNSF)
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
More seriously (and spelled correctly) Lemon Yellow is a pigment made from barium chromate or lead chromate with lead sulphate, first formulated in 1809 - the lead based version would be ideal for painting freight cars in the pre-safety first world of 1904.  According to my (house) painter (trained in England) nothing sticks like lead paint - used for generations on exterior ironwork.

http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/overview/lemonyellow.html

Konrad
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
So now we have a painted car - not decaled mind you, but painted.  I am going for "Canary Yellow" with C&S Red ends and roof, so let e know what you think of the colors and the paint scheme interpretation.



I have tried to color correct the image to match the actual model, but it may be a little bright.    

The paint on the sides is Vallejo 70.953 Flat Yellow toned down with (bout 35%) 70.917 Beige.  The trim is Vallejo Black.

The C&S red was mixed using Tamiya acrylics, and is a blend of Hull Red, Red Brown, a touch of Red and a touch of Desert Yellow. The roof paint was lightened a bit more and some streaking painted in.  The top surfaces of the roof walk boards are unpainted.

Next up are some Leadville Shops decals and weathering, and after that, I can start the St. Charles car.

Konrad

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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Jeff Young
Hi Konrad,

I think the yellow and red look good. Iā€™d use Grimy Black (aka Russian Uniform 70.924, or Grimy Black 71.222 in the Model Air range) instead of Black.  I only use Black when I want something to not be seen.

Cheers,
Jeff.


On 23 Mar 2017, at 02:51, Konrad Schreier [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

So now we have a painted car - not decaled mind you, but painted.  I am going for "Canary Yellow" with C&S Red ends and roof, so let e know what you think of the colors and the paint scheme interpretation.



I have tried to color correct the image to match the actual model, but it may be a little bright.    

The paint on the sides is Vallejo 70.953 Flat Yellow toned down with (bout 35%) 70.917 Beige.  The trim is Vallejo Black.

The C&S red was mixed using Tamiya acrylics, and is a blend of Hull Red, Red Brown, a touch of Red and a touch of Desert Yellow. The roof paint was lightened a bit more and some streaking painted in.  The top surfaces of the roof walk boards are unpainted.

Next up are some Leadville Shops decals and weathering, and after that, I can start the St. Charles car.

Konrad




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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
Thanks Jeff - I get your comment on grimy black, but I will be dusting the trucks and underframe with dry brushing and sprayed on weathering - which will pop the detail, so this is just an interim step.  The black areas - particular on the bottom - will lighten quite a bit when I do that.  For the St. Charles car I will add some grey to the black though. The 26 foot Tiffany car will be heavily weathered, and I will really lighten up the colors on it.

Konrad
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Don Gustavson II
Looking good Konrad.
Out of curiosity I played around with your photo a little.
I wanted to see it in Black/White. I did not use a true orthochromic filter on this.
I just used Abobe Photo Shop. Turned it to black and white.
Then tuned it to black and white again while bringing the yellows down.
HOn3 is the path I have chosen.
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
Bravo Don!

I tried this experiment, but my software wouldn't pull it off.

This seems to validate Konrad's theory that yellow's at the TOTC rendered dark, lighter than black, but close to how "freight car red" would register on the same film.  That might better explain this image of  the 1903 Illinois spur wreck:





Because of the relatively dark sides (the black lettering barely shows), Derrell Poole and others have hypothesized that the inherited Tiffany reefers were repainted with orange sides in 1901-1903.  But it does seem odd that the new St Charles reefers would have been delivered painted yellow, and yet the newly incorporated C&S immediately repainted its old reefers orange, then reverting to yellow sides on the SUF reefers of 1909.

As much as I'm hesitant to make color pronouncements based on B&W photos, Konrad's theory that yellows rendered dark reconciles this problem nicely: All C&S first decade reefers may well have been painted in various shades of yellow.



But then again, there are some bothersome inconsistencies:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/3684/rv/singleitem





OK, so this Harry Buckwalter photo of the Colorado Midland Hanrahan reefer isn't a C&S or even a narrow gauge car, but I think it is okay to post here (the C&S would shortly be half owner of the the road) as it is a contemporary of the big St Charles C&S cars--the car in the photo was built in 1897, with a weigh date of "6-30-97", a year before the St Charles cars were delivered.

I'm not sure about written records of the paint scheme of the CM reefers (CM Auditor, you out there?), but most modelers, like Andrew Dodge and our own Bob Stears have assumed that they had yellow sides, freight car red ends and roofs, black under frames and hardware. Lettering on the sides was black with offset red shadow, while white on the ends. The Ute Indian on the placard is assumed to be on a white background.

The photo above is completely consistent with that paint scheme, when judged by our "modern" panchromatic perspective.

But, if Konrad is correct, why do the sides (if yellow) appear light, though darker than white. If all orthochromic film stocks of the period rendered yellows dark, then why aren't the sides of the CM car dark?  Did Buckwalter use a different type of emulsion for the photograph, one with panchromatic properties that rendered yellows light?

And if different film stocks were in use at the TOTC, that rendered yellows differently, how can we make statements about color in any B&W period photo?

But then, what if the all the CM model builders are wrong? What if the Hanrahan reefers didn't have yellow sides, despite model building conventions since the LaBelle kits of the 1960s? The CM had been controlled by the Santa Fe in the late 1880s and 1890s as I recall. There is a consensus that Santa Fe Hanrahan reefers had white sides with black lettering:




Is it possible that the CM car in the Buckwalter photo was in truth painted with linen white or light grey sides, rather than the yellow seen on most  CM models?

I find this reprise of the debate over reefer colors fascinating, if inconclusive. Too many contradictions in photos.

I'd appreciate any insight about written records as to CM car painting schemes, or historians of photography.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
Jim -

The Harriman car image is really interesting.  You did not date the photo, but based on the contrast from the herald to the sides (and the general high resolution and qualities of the grey shading in the image), I think it may have been taken on early panchromatic film, which appears circa 1906.  (see   https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchromatic_film ).  

As support for the image being taken after 1906, note the presence of a tower knuckle coupler, end grabs, and side and end ladders as required by the 1911 Safety Appliances Act.  That law led to the demise of the last of the rebuilt Tiffany cars in the mid teens.  I would suggest that the date over the weight markings on the car end is actually the build date.  I don't see any later rebuild or repack marks, but perhaps others know more about CM car data marking practice in the 1910 - 1915 era.  It is possible that the rebuild date was intentionally not marked because it was actually after the the statutory requirement.

So, although not in common use circa 1910-1915 panchromatic film was 'out there' and a professional photographer could have chosen to use it on a subject with a lot of yellow to avoid the darkening effects of orthochromatic filmstock.  

If you apply that analysis the photos are internally consistent because they represent images made using two different film stocks.

Konrad
 
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Jim Courtney
Hey Konrad,

The DPL notes, which may or may not be correct, state:

Accession number: 90.156.389; History Colorado.; Condition: Corner of plate is broken.; Formerly F12601.; Title, "Railroad" and "made at Colo. City July 16, 1897" handwritten on negative envelope.; R7200302577

If so, Buckwalter took the photo for the Midland to document the arrival of the cars at Colorado City, the car just over 2 weeks old.  The only other date on the car is a chalk mark under the right side door, "Denver 7/9":





This suggests the car was shipped from Pullman on July 9, 1897.

Everything points to a photo date of July, 1897, a photo of a brand new car, despite the end ladders and Tower couplers. The weigh date of 6-30-97 would be the same as the build date at the factory, the first weighing of the car.

So either Panchromatic film emulsions came along much earlier, or maybe the car isn't really yellow--anyone know for certain?
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Robert McFarland
When did they stop using glass plates?"Corner of plate is broken?"
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Don Gustavson II
Don Gustavson II wrote
Looking good Konrad. Out of curiosity I played around with your photo a little. I wanted to see it in Black/White. I did not use a true orthochromic filter on this. I just used Abobe Photo Shop. Turned it to black and white. Then tuned it to black and white again while bringing the yellows down.
Don - thank you for doing that - I think you have captured the issue with orthochromatic images perfectly! Now a question for all: what car number to use - the Leadville Shops/Cimmeron Works decals illustrate #592, and it can't be #597 because I used the 'square ended' hinges, so what to choose? Another quandry - length an capacity data. I think the first is obvious - "27 ft." but capacity. The Marshall drawings suggest 28,000 pounds - the Stears drawings 50,000 - the former seems more reasonable, and is included in the decals, but I am sure others know more than me about this. Konrad
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
Konrad,

Since you're modeling a rebuilt 27 foot car with queen posts, the car should carry a number between 585 and 599. But 586 was wrecked in May of 1903 and was never rebuilt. And as you say, 597 had been rebuilt with the diamond shaped hinges like on the 26 foot cars.

So any number 585, 587-596, 598-599 would probably be OK.

(Info from Derrell Poole's article in Colorado Narrow Gauge Magazine, Vol 2, No. 3, pages 14-18.)


As for weight capacity, that was determined by the type of truck used. Before rebuilding, both the 26 and 27 foot Tiffanys appear to have used the UP 14 ton trucks, what Doug Heitkamp refers to as "type C" trucks. Thus the capacity before rebuilding was 28,000 lb.

No way of knowing exactly what trucks were used on each of the 27 foot cars after the 1902-1903 rebuilding. Some probably retained their original 14 ton trucks (ie 28,000 capacity). You've chosen to use the Peninsular 20 ton truck on your model, what Coronado Scale Models calls the "type B" truck. So for consistency, you should probably letter your 27 foot rebuilt Tiffany as 40,000 lb capacity.

The first 25 ton truck (50,000 lb capacity) to show up on the C&S were the St Charles trucks under the coal cars, big reefers and boxcars, c1897-1898. I doubt that any were ever used under the Tiffanys.

Unless someone unearths an old trunk full of rebuilt Tiffany reefer photos, no one will be able to prove you wrong!
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

Konrad Schreier
Thanks Jim, I decided on #590, and changed the capacity to 40,000# to match the trucks.  The car is painted and weathered now, and looks pretty good for a Mainline Models kit.   The canary yellow came out pretty well, and the Leadville Shops decals are perfect for this car, go easy on the Solvaset though - had a couple near disasters when I got a little too enthusiastic with that.  Unfortunately the weathering is a little washed out in these pictures due to color correction, it looks better in real life.







Please don't hesitate to comment.   If you are working on your own project (as I suspect some are), I hope you will add it to this thread :-)

Next up, the St. Charles car.  Step one is building the car sub-floor.   I have laid that out on the wood, but there is a conflict in available information on the car's length.   Anybody able to reconcile the difference between the C&S folio car-body length dimension and the available plans?  There is like a 1 foot difference (roughly 29' (plans) vs 30' 3" (folio))

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Konrad
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