Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

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Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Jimmy Blouch
During December 2013 there was a discussion on  NGDF concerning Fremont Pass facilities.

Discussion started with reference to a photo of a structure at Fremont Pass posted by Darel on his personal blog (coloradosouthern.blogspot.com).

One post wondered about the possibility of the structure being the D&RG engine house.

I posted information indicating the D&RG did not have an engine house at Fremont Pass.

Recently I have been really studying the photo and a few maps and still believe the D&RG did not have an engine house at that location.

The photo appears in the 2nd volume of the 3 volume Mineral Belt series authored by Digerness.  Caption refers to the structure as D&RG engine house and burned 1907.  I feel that is in error on both counts.

Photo also appears in “Pictorial Supplement to Denver South Park & Pacific”.
Caption does not state specific railroad but is presented in a manner that suggests “South Park” structure.  Caption also refers to 1907 burn date, again in error.

In viewing the enlargement posted on the blog one can make out a little more detail.  The structure does not appear to be in use.  I do not see a turnout leading to it.  Also, I wonder if the black spots at the top, above the door, are the result of fire damage and not from engine smoke.

The photo appears to have been taken from the back end of a train and I feel is much later than the year 1883.

Below are scans of two D&RG maps which do not reflect an engine house.
The 1883 map shows a DSP&P line, that is a surveyed line, not a constructed line.

Jimmy






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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
Jimmy,

Thanks so much for the maps.  Any idea of the date of the lower map?

The enginehouse dimensions of 60 foot square, suggests that it may have not been an enginehouse per se, but rather a covered turning, watering and coaling facility, analagous to the stone structures at Alpine and Boreas, though on a smaller scale.  Any notation on the maps or other written materials to confirm a turntable at Fremont, later Climax?  The second map is very detailed, notes an office building that shows up in later photos from the early 19teens, but no wye for turning helpers has been installed.

I'm not surprised that the D&RG didn't have an engine house or even turning trackage at Fremont Pass, as the Blue River branch was essentially a Leadville to Dillon out and back operation, with a daily mixed train providing service for most of its existence.  Other than snow trains, I've never seen a photo of more than one engine on a train on the Blue River branch.

The South Park/C&S, on the other hand was running Denver to Leadville thru traffic, which would have required multiple helpers on both sides of the pass, with the need for turning facilities at the top.

Thanks for starting a potentially great thread.  Can't wait for Chris to weigh in with some of his DPL gems (and I've already started looking).
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Jimmy Blouch
This is the first time I posted an image on this site and both came out extra large.
If you go to the bottom of the second map a bar shows up and you can move it to the right to see the date of 1904.
I don't have material at hand that reflects turn table, though one shows up at some point.
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Chris Walker
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
I think Jimmy has it pretty well thought out, I've flip-plopped over this for years, and the above 2 posts say everything.  I haven't found any hidden gems on this, I like to think we will but if anywhere, they would be residing with the archives of the Climax Company.  A Leadville Author by the name of Stephen Voynick wrote an excellent book on the complete history and operations called "Climax", in it he had numerous photos of the facilities attributed to the Climax Co.  As most authors want the very best pictures to illustrate their books I guess the out of focus, in the background, not relevant to the Climax story content are still sitting waiting to be published.

One of the problems identifying this area is that both railroads used threeway turnouts at the Northern entry, the well known Enginehouse shot is too far away from the Switch to really ID any trackage arrangement.

If the TT shed burned, then it was probably most expedient to add the Wye leg to the Mill track.  I seem to recall Rick Steele having more on the Engineshed posted somewhere years ago.

Thank You Jimmy for posting this stuff here.

PS If you click on the photograph you can use the left-right arrows to slide across the picture(s) without having to scroll down to the sliderbar.
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Jimmy Blouch
Jimmy, you're really making my day!

I've never seen documentation of first decade C&S facilities at this location before.

For the sake of discussion, I will re-post Daryl's photo and the link to the blog entry:



http://coloradosouthern.blogspot.com/2013/12/freemont-pass-engine-house.html

Note Rick and Doug's extensive written descriptions of the facilities in the discussion of that post.

I'm working in the hospital today, but when I get home tomorrow, there are some other early images of Fremont Pass that I'd like to add.  This looks like another chapter in discussion of the Ten Mile part of the C&S.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Jimmy Blouch
Jimmy,

The second map is obviously a D&RG map, could I ask where you found it?  Are there other maps out there showing D&RG facilities at Ten Mile Canyon stations?

I've a pretty good idea of C&S trackage and facilities from Dickey-->Dillon-->Frisco-->Kokomo-->Robinson-->Climax, but I've never seen good documentation of the D&RG's adjacent Blue River branch, other than Kokomo and now Fremont Pass.  Have you seen any D&RG station maps of Wheeler, Robinson or Frisco?
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Chris Walker
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Jim, Darel's picture is here, in full.

http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/4211/rv/singleitem/rec/132



Others eleswhere have offered that the black/white "post" is a Signboard, to me I'm leaning towards a Elliot SwSt. with a Conifer in the background distorting the silhouette..  It is on the same side as the later picture.



http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/36907/rv/singleitem/rec/7
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Robert McFarland
Where was the original thread,or was that on NGDF?
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Jimmy Blouch
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Both maps are D&RG.
To answer your questions.
I have been collecting material here and there for over 50 years and have quite a bit.
Other D&RG maps I have seen are for Robinson, Wheeler, and Officers Spur.  I would like to see a good map of Frisco.

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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Jimmy Blouch
In reply to this post by Robert McFarland
There was a discussion on one of the blogs here and one on NGDF.
Perhaps the "Again" is in error.
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Jeff Young
In reply to this post by Chris Walker
In reference to sign vs. switch-stand, the horizontal dark line at the bottom certainly says “head block” to me….

Cheers,
Jeff.
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Chris Walker


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/84093/rv/singleitem/rec/2308

The D&RG atop Fremont.
The Helper must have been cut off.  There is a cowcatcher visible with no snow upon it and I doubt that load was pulled up by just the one 2-8-0.  Also most of the Boxcars are lettered C.R.S.T.  :)
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Keith Hayes
CRST = Colorado Rolling Stock Trust. Sloan tells us there were 5, designated A to E used to fund D&RG rolling stock purchases between 1880-83. Each series was capitalized at $1M.
Keith Hayes
Leadville in Sn3
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Chris Walker
I was studying this DPL photo last night.  I thought the building to the right was the D&RG section house, but it seems too far south, near the convergence of the tracks on Jimmy's map
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Chris Walker
In reply to this post by Keith Hayes
Note that this author describes the D&RG Bunkhouse as the "DSP&P Station", note the D&RG Boxcar used as a Depot or Telegraph Office alongside the tracks.  The Bunkhouse shows up in deteriorating condition in much later shots of the Climax Mill expansion.


from Climax, Stephen M. Voynick,  Mountain Press Publishing  pg46



from Mineral Belt V-2, David S. Digerness, Sundance Publications pg222

In this Mineral Belt photo, the old D&RG Boxcar is still extant.


from Mineral Belt V-2, David S. Digerness, Sundance Publications pg219

UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Chris Walker
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
You too, huh!  I offer "Damned Snow"makes for added difficulty.

UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Jim Courtney
I see we're on the same page, Chris.

Jimmy's map, with all the structures labeled for both railroads, got me to enlarging DPL photos.  I thought it would be nice to put a face on as many of the squares and rectangles on the map as possible.


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/4207/rec/108

Early (1890s?) view of the Section House and Telegraph office.

An enlargement of right side of same photo:


The Telegraph Office and "car bodies" are visible.


Moving forward in time to the 19teens:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/36909/rec/64
 D&RG 3 track "yard" in foreground.  Buildings from left to right are mine office, storehouse, C&S section house, C&S station sign and C&S telegraph office.

Enlargements of the same photo:


Section house, sign post and telegraph office.  The car bodies seem to be gone.


Right half of office and storehouse.  The early mill is in the back center.

Moving to the 1920s:


Dated 1924, Climax Molybdenum Company.

Finally a snowy scene in 1929:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/4517/rec/79

Enlargements show lots of neat stuff:


Note the C&S locomotive to the far right.


From left to right, the D&RG section house still stands; the "hospital" is partially visible between the section house and the next structure, the office building.  The storehouse is to the right.


An enlargement of the D&RG section house; unless "Old Gold" cigarettes were shipped in wooden crates in 1929, it appears the section house has been covered in cardboard (the printing is more legible by enlarging the DPL image).


That's it so far, still looking!
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Keith Hayes
Keith,

Since you brought up D&RG trust series (on a C&S discussion forum no less), I thought I would post photos of a variety of early D&RG freight cars from different trusts:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll21/id/14480/rec/415

Enlargement makes for fascinating study:









Can you identify the blurred locomotive in the background?
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Jimmy Blouch
Jimmy,

Any chance that you have copies of the D&RG maps for Wheeler, Robinson and Officer's Spur?  And what about Dillon?  If so, would you possibly be willing to post them here?  Maybe a new thread, like "Ten Mile Stations of the D&RG"? (He asks hopefully).
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Fremont Pass Facilities (Again)

Chris Walker
I'd like to offer that maybe the D&RG moved said Depot from Fremont Pass down to where it was more likely needed at Kokomo and then afterwards added the second Chimney at a later date ?

Kokomo Depot.
Note no Chimneys yet.  Would I be wrong in thinking the Brickies would build up through the roof before it was decked and shingled.


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/9187/rv/singleitem/rec/40

Close-up.


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/10192/rv/singleitem/rec/12

Kokomo Depot later.  Note the two styles of Chimney, indicative of differing Time periods of construction.


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/9170/rv/singleitem/rec/30
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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