Those are great photos. I was a Sumpter Valley guy before I got into the CC/DSP&P and pre-Alpine Tunnel closure C&S. Much of the SV equipment came from the Utah Northern -- along with investment. There is a 1954 photo of me with my mother and brother in front of a grounded SV box car that is obviously of the DSP&P era vintage. The photo is on Hatch's website. That car has since appeared in lots of books and magazine articles.
I had NWSL 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s first in HOn3 and then in On3 to model the era and locale -- keep sending pictures like this and I will be back there again! Irony is I am now using modernized Cooke/ALCO 2-6-0 to model W&W Pennsylvania NG, in part to honor my father who was in a coma in Washington PA prior to his death -- I visited the W&W NG station to get away from the ICU. TMI I know.
Finally, friends from law school had an original miners cabin on the stream up 4 Mile Canyon(?) by Sunset CO -- the retaining wall was logs held by 35 pound or so rail from the NG. They later bought land downstream -- the flat ground was the ROW and they had stone RR abutments for their bridge. Garage was on the ROW and house climbed the canyon wall.
I love this list!
Ocean View DE
On Tuesday, February 3, 2015 5:37 PM, Jeff Ramsey [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks guys! Cool and interesting U&N images.
If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
The faded old photo posted by Doug Heitkamp of a four-wheel caboose is of great interest. For the past week I have pondered and tried to determine exactly what it shows. After some Photoshop work, it appears that the car is lettered number "1612". Acording to the 1893 OREG, the 14 narrow gauge cabooses of the Oregon Short Line & Utah Northern were numbered 1601-1623. If I am correct, Doug's photo of the four wheel caboose 1612 would be of a Utah & Northern car. Others have noted its simularity to the cabin cars that eventually became C&S 306 (1005) and 310 (1008), which Darrell Poole shows as original DSP&P cars. Could this car have gone to the DL&G sometime after 1893? Previously, all the known Utah Northern (U&N) cabooses had flat roofs and no cupola. Something to think about, your observations invited.
By the end of 1885 the ORER listings for the DSP&P had finally caught up with how many waycars were actually on the ground in Colorado. For Nov. it listed 21 cars numbered 1500 - 1520. However the UP Annual Report indicated 21 car at the beginning of 1885 but only 19 as of Dec. 31. How would 3 cars suddenly disappear within the space of perhaps 6 months? Of course, wrecks, fires, floods - acts of God. How 'bout sales? Three cars gone just like that - to where?
The Nov. 1887 ORER listed the DSP&P series as 1500 to 1520 - 21 numeral holders - but only 19 cars. Could it be - are there dots that can be connected to support the idea - that 3 cars were sold to the Utah & Northern in late 1885? Let's see... in the first UP Annual Report (June 1885) that enumerated the cars of its holdings the U&N had 19 cabooses; but by 31 Dec. 1885 the U&N had 23 cars. One roster increasing and one decreasing. And those were the only real changes to any of the NG cabooses rosters between the two Annual Reports.
(The ORERs are notoriously off kilter when it comes to accurate numbers on a given listing. They take months, even years within these early volumes, to catch up to roster changes. The Annual Reports should be considered more accurate. Their shortcoming is that they only occurred once a year - generally.)
The South Park (and DL&G) roster continued to dwindle; UP AR 1886 - 17 SP waycars; AR 1890 - 16 cars; AR 1892 - 15 cars; AR 1893 - 11 cars. By then, of course, the OSL&UN was fully sg'd and many SP cars that had gone to Utah in the 1885 - 1887 period had returned to Colorado. Now what we may have was U&N 1601 on the SP as a borrowed car. Imagine that! The SP might have leased a car it had originally owned - hey, the dots are there! Its not just fanciful speculation. Why 1601? Because a DL&G letter dated 27 Jan. 1895 included an inventory of this car's materials and equipment. Dots, dots, dots...
1893 seems to be the last UP AR that listed DL&G equipment. From this point all we have are the Auditors Journal for the South Park. In July 1894 the Journal listed the number of Cabooses to be 17 !!! But this could be a copying error as one would expect it to be 11. Or the auditor found and counted 6 foreign cars on the line - seems unlikely to me. Besides, the Journal seemed to have been in a constant state of correcting "cars carried on the books" even tho they were disposed of months or even years before. Where would we be without bean counters? (In other words don't get hung up on this!)
According to the ORER, by the end of 1893, the SP was down to 12 cars no'd. 1500 -1519. As we have seen the AR indicated 11 but note that car 1520 had been vacated by the Register. After this - 1894 onward to 1898 - the DL&G was not listed in the ORER either.
The next record of total car accounting occurred in the June 1898 DL&G Annual Report. This was the first AR I am aware of for the SP after 1893. In this Report the RR listed 12 Cabooses - with Westinghouse Brakes, btw. Two of them were also equipped with Selden Couplers. WHEN did the additional car become SP property?
A letter dated 25 March, 1896, from the Receivers of the OSL&UN to the Circuit Court of the United States for Idaho petitioned for permission to sell as much of their narrow gauge equipment as they could. The letter, several pages long, presented argument that the equipment was sitting idle and of no use to the now Broad Gauged RR. It should be sold before it deteriorated beyond usefulness. Specifically, the RR was looking to sell ng Stock Cars - apparently they had the interest a potential buyer. Hmmmm. Wonder who that might have been? The letter proposed that they would sell the cars for 50.00 each.
Then we find in a Dec. 1896 entry of the Auditors Journal for the UPD&G that they had purchased 2 stock cars with U&N numbers for 150.00 total. The amount might seem out of whack until one considers that the cost of the cars could have included $25 each for shipping and handling. In fact, the two cars were purchased in Oct. 1896. Can we then suppose, that at or about the same time, the DL&G bought the U&N caboose it had inventoried for tools and materials in Jan. 1895?
Dots, dots, dots... sometimes they seem clear and sometimes not. We do not know when the caboose was added. We do not know, as fact, 1601 was the new caboose - or that it was the old caboose come home as the new caboose. We also don't know where else they would get such a caboose - can any of you even tell me which of the 12 DL&G cars was the former U&N car?
On the other hand, is there another set of more likely dots out there? Y'all tell me. I'll tell you this; I am fast becoming altogether unimpressed with how much the U&N or any of the other NG roads contributed to the C&S Caboose Roster. Right now I see just Two viable possibilities and one of those was from the SG Denver & New Orleans.
As far as 1005 and 1008 being former U&N cars simply because they have similar characteristics (rounded corners?) is that the only explanation for that? I am not inclined to believe so; though it is a possibility. I see just one car from the U&N that very well could have been a former DSP&P car. Having that heritage about it, could we tell it apart from the rest of the former South Park bobbers?
Oh, and just for the record - That I've shared this information and my thoughts does NOT grant anyone the liberty to repeat it without explicated connection to its origin - my name and where you read it! I may not own the content of the documents I possess but I own the logic I've contrived from what those documents say!
Thanks Darell and Doug. I spent some time today going through Sumpter Valley Ry photos. It is obvious that the SV acquired at least two former Utah Northern cabooses, with curved flat roofs, three windows each side and no cupolas in about 1890. Of course by that time (1890) the OSL&UN was standard gauged, so Darrell's coment about the narrow gauge UP cars being for sale, probably in Pocatello, seems logical. Some of those excess stock cars, offered for $50 each, probably went to the SV, as the Oregon road acquired a number of "UP" lettered stock cars (with white painted facia boads) at this time.
I have a bound book entitled "Foreclosure of the Utah & Northern Ry. Co." that covers Oliver Ames and Joseph Richardson (representing Jay Gould) suit against the OSL&UN in 1896. At 700 pages, it is a tough read, but does show that at the end of OSL&UN narrow gauge operations the company still had on hand "a large amount of narrow gauge cars, approximating about 600 cars..." The list shows 569 cars of all types, plus 47 cars that were "worn out and unservicable". The servicable list includeed 11 cabooses. This book confirms Darrell's letter showing"a large number of stock cars" for the sum of $50 per car. The listing also shows the 22 car numbers. The only narrow gauge line still being operated by the OSL&UN was from Salt Lake City to Terminus, known as the "Terminus Branch". This would refer to the former Salt Lake &Western RR.
However, all this still does not explain Doug's photo of the short C&S style 4-wheel waycar with cupola that appears to be UN number 1612. When did the first short cupola-equipped cars show up on the DSP&P/DL&G and/or CC/UPD&G?
I don't understand why Doug's photo needs to be explained with regard to the DSP&P?
The ORER indicates, prior to the possibility of SP cabooses going to the U&N, that the roster included cars 1604 and up. This was UP reno'g. and perhaps indicated a possible "design" to fill the lower numbers (actually 1601 to 1603) with 3 SP cabooses. So with the dots that we have 1612 had nothing whatsoever to do with the SP. What we need is a photo of 1601. Then we can confirm, deny, spindle or mutilate the theory. Maybe...
Well let's try this again; no one checks my math... Well!
First let me emphasize that most of this is Theory. That hard numbers in documents like the ORER and even Annual Reports cannot be regarded as infallible. Auditors entries seem to be in a constant state of "correction" and were by no means complete; if all we have are Auditor entries we have an impossibly encrypted roster. The comparison and collaboration of all of the sources helps extract a better picture but nothing that can be regarded as complete.
Keep in mind that humans wrote the records, humans write history, and humans make mistakes. One must have at least a few exceptional "critical thinkers" to get as far as we have. One of those is Ron Rudnick, whose published "Modelers Guides" are a considerable resource; not just because they collect together a great deal of "Record" information but because of his insight, Critical Thinking, and dedication to the Truth of the matter.
My focus has generally been to the later version of the South Park, the C&S . But I am every on a quest to understand the origins of the equipment and road I study. Knowing where and when the cabooses came from is part of my searching.
Let's start with this; there is no certainty that SP waycars 60 & 61 came from the AT&SF. Those Santa Fe cars came to Canon City in mid 1879 as that road prepared to extend to Leadville on NG track. We all know what happened to that. The close association with the DSP&P as well as that some SF equipment was leased to the SP is the strongest suggestion the cabooses made it to the South Park. Ummmm, not too convincing...
The documents collectively suggest 2 cars were off the SP roster by June 1885 with the UP Renumbering provides 21 numeral place holders. There is no contemporary narrative (we know of) that describes why. The first car seems to have disappeared perhaps in 1883. The UP Annual Report of (Dec.?) 1884 listed 21 cars for the DSP&P and 19 for the U&N.
Why make this comparison? Besides a U&N number identified on the DL&G 10 years later a broader view of the situation between 1883 and 1885 reveals a LOT of equipment was going TO Utah from Colorado courtesy of the Union Pacific. The U&N was prospering whereas the SP was on the cusp of a slump. Nothing dictates that any of the SP waycars were wrecked during this period. Where would they go?
Here is the math; 82 minus 59 (SP no's. 60 thru 82) = 23. Nineteen minus 23 = 4 cars off roster by 1886.
The Dec. 1885 Annual Report lists the numerical situation thus; DSP&P 19 cars; U&N 23 cars.
The out-of-sync ORER listed U&N cars as 66 to 85 as 19 cars (with 20 numeral place holders available) in early 1885 and then 1604 to 1622 as 19 cars (with 19 numeral place holders available). Then in 1887 the U&N had 22 cars listed as 1600 - 1622 and one car missing (total 22 cars). The Annual Report for Dec. 1886 listed 22 cars.
If you think the Kansas Central had much to do with this, a review of their listing in the Annual Report is pretty benign; 1884 - 4 cars; 1885 - 4 cars; 1886 - 4 cars; should I go on?
Since all we have are these few bits and pieces - these dots - I find it difficult to get MORE comfortable with a different scenario (this one isn't that comfortable to begin with but I'm slowly convincing myself...).
Now lets go forward 10 years. In a Jan. 1895 letter I've already mention, the number 1601 came up in an inventory of DL&G cabooses. That is the ONLY solid evidence that a U&N caboose was on the SP (that I know of). But, uh.... what if it didn't come from the U&N - that is, directly? We still have another issue; that of UPD&G 1727 which inexplicable seems to turn into 1782. What happened there? (And is Derrell about to connect a couple more dot? Stay tuned... maintain... keep cool...)
Until 1895 the UPD&G listed 2 NG caboose. That year the ORER listed 3 cars as 1725 - 1727. (You understand that actual "ownership" in all of this seems to be quite fluid - about like nailing a puddle to the ground; good grief!) That car could have easily been on the system since the early '90s. Suppose 1601 was actually the car slated to be, and therefore listed as, UPD&G 1727. Clearly it was operating on the DL&G - as could have 1725 and 1726, since the SP was then operated as a subsidiary of the Gulf. The thought occurs; as SP traffic increased in the late '90s there was a growing need for another caboose. For whatever reason, it may have been in best interest to transfer 1601 - a car that most likely originated on the SP anyway - to the DL&G and attempt to use an 8 wheeled car of sg D&NO origin as a CC ng caboose.
1) Four DSP&P waycars go to Ogden and become U&N 1600 - 1604.
2) One car, 1601, returns to Denver for the UPD&G.
3) the car sees more service and use on the DL&G.
4) the Gulf passed "ownership" of 1601 to the SP and convert ex- D&NO 2106 8 wheeled caboose to ng for the CC line
There were no TRUE foreign (non Colorado) cabooses on the C&Sng.
Any skeet shooters out there?
Here are a few more things to shoot at (oh, please do);
Cupolas began showing up in the early to mid '90s (perhaps an influence of 1601). There were at least 4 of them on the SP in the late '90s. (Photo evidence offered elsewhere on this forum). C&S 303 was the largest car we know of (no record for 302, 307,and 314). It and 2 other cars, 306 (1005) and 311 (wrecked 2-'09) were recorded to have "lookouts". Again no record of 307 which was destroyed in 8-'02. Also note that 302 - the theoretical 8 wheeled car - was NOT described with a cupola. And neither was 310 (1008 - rounded corners notwithstanding). That is the record as of April 1903 - do we doubt it? Three cars with lookouts but 4 cars found together in a photo. Could 307 or 314 have been the 4th car?
Since 303 (1002) was the most different of all the cars, besides 302 (087), there is at least a slight gravitational pull to believe it could have been relettered to DL&G 1500 - a logical place to start if the original 1500 was vacated by that point; that would have been the oldest car on the roster anyway. I said it was bigger having been 14'6" long, 7'4" wide and 6'10" high inside. 304 was the next biggest @ 14'x7'x6'1". Everything else - excluding those cars not defined (302, 307 & 314) was in the neighborhood of 12 feet. These dimentions may also suggest that perhaps one of the newest cars on the SP went west in 1885.
I am also leaning more and more toward 1511 being former 72. Today anyway.
was there any co-operation between the D&RG/DSP&P at the time of the joint-track to Leadville from B.V. that led to similar rollingstock, specifically cabooses and stock-cars? Early D&RG stockcars resemble those of the early DSP&P and there is a photo of at least one D&RG caboose that resembles DSP&P "waycar" construction.
Do you think that there are any "dots" to connect along that diversion?
Well there was interaction of course both during and after the Joint Operation. But I've not found a single reason to suggest there was exchange of equipment that became a permanent part of the SP / C&S. I could not draw those lines even if I wanted to. Don't know about the D&RG but I wouldn't expect it. The RRs involved were akin to each other under the UP umbrella.
On the Kiersey site compare photo dspp00012 of aDSP&P car at Nathrop with m00406 in the BV joint yards which shows what seems to be a D&RG car(the door opens to the left).There seem to be significant differences,but both look like stock racks on a flat car.It seems that the 1200 series stock cars might have even spent some time as flat cars
Some thing to ponder
UP Journals show that the Kansas Central caboose cost @421 for 2 in November, 1884
UP Journals show that the Colorado Central caboose October and November, 1883 @ $501
UP Journals show that nine DSP&P Caboose cars between September 1883 thru May 1884 @ cost $487
Timeline of U&N caboose cars.
January 1879: U&N signs a large contract with Ohio Falls that includes 4 caboose
December, 1880: UP Journals for 2 way and Caboose cars $2,578.24 @ $1,289
Blackhawk Register (BR) 4/21/1883: Caboose in Eagle Rock shops undergoing repairs
BR 5/17/83: Caboose #73 ready to leave Eagle Rock shops. It is a two truck car and has a cupola
June, 1883: UP Journals 12 way cars from UP MP&C (Motive Power & Cars) $17,858 or @ $1.488
BR 6/23/83: "This week two new way cars were taken through to the upper division" of the U&N. They are not as well finished as those that came out of the Eagle Rock shops
BR 1/12/84: Eagle Rock paint shop is about ready to turn out a new caboose
BR 10/31/84: A small dinkey caboose reported to have derailed and rode on the ties
May, 1885: UP Journals 4 new narrow gauge caboose #1600-1603 $2,602 or @ $650
BR 12/12/85: Some caboose cars referred to as "2 x 4 dinkey cars"
September, 1887: 12 caboose changed to Broad gauge $217`
It is my opinion that the photo of U&N Caboose #1612 shows a former narrow gauge caboose now sitting on a broad gauge truck. Note how the wheel piece of the truck sets below the frame of the caboose, while the wheel piece on C&S Narrow gauge caboose cars appears to be snuggled up inside the frame.