Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

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Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Derrell Poole
I see the ol' ticker counter creeping up on 100k hits. Everybody must be coming here to see if there is any new ssssstufff at the Blog Smorgasbord - yum. Everybody eats... who cooks?

Well maybe here's a dish you can chew on...

I've been tweeked onto a bit of a roll by all the caboose discussion lately. I got all my little brassy bobbers out and put them on the track I use for testing power trains and DCC - part of my job. And then I stepped back and counted; one, two....seven! I have seven brassy bobbers. So I got to thinking do I have all of the bobbers I need for 1910. No - I knew that. How many do I need (I also have a couple of Village Depot kits so maybe I have nine)? Not enough. In 1910 there were still 12 bouncing bettvs on the line. 300, 301, 303, 304, 305, 306, 308, 309, 310, 312, 313 and 314.... iirc....

Orrrrrrrrrr.... maybe there were really 13. This triggered a tangent. Whatever happened to 302 turned 0302 turned 087? In 1905, 302 was transferred to MOW as an outfit and apparently reno'd 0302. Then it was reno'd in 1909 to 087. It was finally retired in Feb. 1928. I found this in my trusty copy of the "Unit Record of Property Changes"under a category called "outfit, box, boarding".

Boarding? Just how many pipples can you board in a bobber? And then there it was again - and after all these years, too; that age old question - what exactly was 302 where did it come from and why was it chosen to be an outfit car? Hmmmmmmm? Anybody have anything on this car? I mean, if it lasted to almost 1930 surely y'all might be interested? Anyone willing to sing for our supper? Cause otherwise I'm just going out for dinner...

"Well, Derrell, I'd like to know more about 087..."
"Sounds like a great mystery to me Derrell..."
"I know more about this than you, Derrell, but I'm going to wait for you to pull the trigger..."
"What does this have to do with 8 wheeled cabooses, Derrell..."
"Waaaait a minute, Derrell; are you being sarcastic?"
"Moff-munf, miffin lmumf, merffilaf,muff! Mummff!" (okay, don't talk with your mouth full!)
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Robert McFarland
I've seen a picture of a Utah&Northern 8-wheel caboose in some material on the U&N on the UTAH RAILS website that looked something like the combine in a TYCO General train set.Did you ever hear of a Doddridge refridgerator car?
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

John Schapekahm
In reply to this post by Derrell Poole
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Derrell Poole
In reply to this post by Robert McFarland
I've not heard of a Doddridge Reefer car - not that I recall anyway. Sounds like an interesting topic.

The UP brought a number of narrow gauge roads under it's umbrella and of course we are all familiar with how they swapped equipment around. The U&N did - I'm certain - contribute to the DL&G roster with what appears to have been their caboose 1601.They may have even contributed a second car; there is a theory out there suggesting C&S 1005 and 1008 were perhaps two cars that came from that road. Theory - not fact.

Good points Robert. Thanks.
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Derrell Poole
In reply to this post by John Schapekahm
The KC cars seem like a likely fit and people like Ron Rudnick and myself have spoken of this in that regard. Nothing has shot that possibility down as far as I know so it is still on the table. But one problem I have with such a car becoming UPD&G 1782 / 63 is that of timing; The KC cars were available 5 years before the 3rd Gulf car showed up on the ng roster (in late 1895). Of course it could have come thru a circuitous route.

I certainly appreciate that you and Robert have stepped up to the plate with meaningful thought. To everyone else; the "teacher" can learn as much from questions as the student can learn from answers. I am looking for answers to this mystery and I want to share what I believe may be a viable theory - sadly I cannot state anything as fact - but I don't know everything. So please tell us what you might know or at least why you would like to know - where did 1782 / 63 / 302 come from?

And John, Derrell is ALWAYS sarcastic - it's my hobby.(So is cynicism... lately...)
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Mike Trent
Administrator
Rob Smith built a model of what I think was that U&N caboose. I'm sure it has 4 wheel trucks, and he painted it green, for the love of God. I have a picture of it somewhere. Very unusual and cool looking car, he was sure it had run for a time on the South Park. Not sure if that was after 1900. I'll get back to you on this.
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Tim Schreiner
Here she is Mike.

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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Derrell Poole
Well that is a cool car! Thanks Tim.
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Doug Heitkamp
Speaking of U&N Cabeeseā€¦..

Years ago I was sent this picture. The theory is that it was a U&N Caboose. Anybody have any info?

Doug

Doug Heitkamp
Centennial, CO
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Keith Hayes
Doug, I dunno, but the proportions,  windows and placement sure look like 1005 or 1008.
Keith Hayes
Leadville in Sn3
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Derrell Poole
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
"The Colorado & Southern Ry Freight Equipment." roster issued 1 April 1903. Fifteen cabooses listed 300 - 314. The reno'g. guide, which dates up to about 1907, indicates UPD&G 63 was reno'd. to C&S 302 on 28 Nov. 1899 AND that is was changed to 087 at 7th Street Shops on 9 March 1905. Some place there is indication that it was first reno'd. 0302 and then actually 087 in 1909. But the stuff I've given is the story from the actual documents. Facts.  From the "Unit Record of Property Changes - Equipment", account no. 57,  page entitled "Outfit, Box, Boarding" (27 units) line 18; "087, cost $250.00, A.F.E. 7159 - dismantled 29 Feb. 1928".

Official Railway Equipment Register Nov. 1894 - UPD&G Narrow Gauge; Caboose 1725 - 1726, 2 cars. ORER 1895 UPD&G; Caboose 1725 - 1727, 3 cars.  Notes from the UPD&G Annual Report Dec. 1895 page 18 Equipment List; Cabooses - 3. ORER Jan.1896 UPD&G; Caboose 1725 - 1726, 1782, 3 cars. ORER June 1898 UPD&G; Caboose 61 - 63, 3 cars.

It's tempting to ask; was 1727 a proposed number for a car still in a foreign livery or was there a completely different car involved that disappeared and 1782 was yet another "new" car? I like to believe the ORER is reasonably accurate tho perhaps a bit behind the contemporary roster at times. I'm inclined to believe there was perhaps a purchase of a used NG caboose from say the U&N - another of the 1600 series? But something happened to it. This car and the 1782 both suggest that the Gulf seems to have acquired a need for an additional conductors car. They purchased a used car from another ng road and when it came to grief they simply pressed a sg car into service to replace it.  However that actually panned out, if we simply take the ORER as well as what little record documentation for face value isn't that what it says?

Anyone have a photo of a Gulf sg caboose?

Wait a minute. That may not help either. There is something else that was going on at the time and is reflected in the ORER. Recall that the UPD&G had been formed on 1 April 1890 by combining several roads into a new one. The equipment of those roads were being relettered and numbered for the new Road even as late 1894. By Nov. that year all cabooses had been reno'd. 1735 to 1781 - except one; Denver & New Orleans caboose 2106! Then in 1895 the ORER lists Gulf sg cabooses as 1735 to 1782 - but no 2106! My oh my; where did it go? At this point there were 38 sg cabooses on the UPD&G. When 1782 went over to the ng there are 39 sg cabooses numbered 1735 to 1783! So somewhere two more cars show up. But we don't care because the literal listing of our subject car is listed only in one place or the other.

So. Does anyone know of a photo of a D&NO caboose?....

.......are y'all paying attention?  'cause I'm tellin' ya; there will be a test on this the day after next month!

Input, guys. Find what's missing, if anything.
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Jeff Ramsey
I might be crazy but I actually believe that 302/087 might still exist right in Como! Located right across the road from the roundhouse is a car body that looks alike and is similar in dimension to the surviving car at St. Elmo.
Why I think this could be a former caboose is that:
 1) The corners are quarter rounded just like a passenger car or a way car (caboose) and this car body still has its marker light brackets holders like as mentioned. I have never seen a freight car with rounded corners.
 2) This car has small windows that are located well below the facia. These windows are just like the windows on 1005 and 1008 as shown in the other cabeese posted. I have never seen a photo or a folio of  a C&S outfit with these type of windows. Has anyone  found a folio for 087?
   


3) Another thing interesting is there is evidence of a signal cord that ran through the carlines of this car. There is still a locker on the interior but no signs of a cupola. The interior is in excellent shape and it would be interesting to professionally reveal a number if there is one or more on the end carlines under the layers of paint.



 4) This car has doors just like a C&S caboose design but also might just be like a plain outfit.




I think when this outfit, 087? was retired in 1928 it was set on the ground next to the roundhouse where the smith shop was and is seen in the image in 1938. Later it was moved across the road.

 

I have been accused of this as "pure poppycock" on other groups but the rounded and bracketed corner make me believe this was once 302, a former Utah Northern or Kansas Central way car. Has anyone else seen proof of the Union Pacific or Colorado & Southern doing this to other outfit cars?
Just a theory...  
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Jim Courtney
Great pictures.  Any evidence of past end platforms or caboose style end handrails on the car body??
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Jeff Ramsey
No end  caboose style hand rails on the end but there is evidence of hand rails along side the center door and grab irons going up the side next to the door.



One end has a different style of sheathing nailing pattern (about 16") starting with a board that has a odd bead milled into it. Perhaps this car was rebuilt or wrecked?

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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Jeff Ramsey
In reply to this post by Robert McFarland
I looked at the Utah Rails website but could not find it. Can you post a link?
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Derrell Poole
In reply to this post by Jeff Ramsey
Jeff. This has apparent merit. I can't tell with certainty - is the roof curved? The details you point out are compelling.

It would be interesting to know when the car was set out.

The side door is likely a modification. Side doors seem more common on converted box cars. End doors not so much. This car was listed with boarding cars in the URoPC. Whether the car was just a caboose, a caboose / boarding car, or just a boarding car isn't clear. I think it was initially transferred to MOW to be a caboose and given the number 0302 but at some point it may have been fully a boarder - perhaps then being renumbered 087?

There is no certainty 302 came from the U&N - or the KC. That thought is deducted from comparing ORER listings of various UP stepchild RRs of about the same time a new cabooses came onto the UPD&G. There is documentation of 1601 on the South Park. So it is a little more reasonable to think 1601 became DL&G property.

To me the more credible candidate for UPD&G 1782 narrow gauge caboose is the conversion of UPD&G standard Gauge 1782... no? And since her sister cars were relettered Denver & New Orleans 2100 series cabooses, it seems likely 1782 was also a relettered D&NO caboose. D&NO caboose 2106 was the last to be relettered, according to the ORER. It disappeared from the listing WHEN  UPD&G 1782 appears. Not a certainty of course but sure a stronger argument than a KC or U&N car.
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Tim Schreiner
One thing I agree with here is that the car that was set next to the roundhouse is the same one across the street. I did my study on this a couple years ago. I also believe the shed used in the final years for a sanding facility is also across the street.



My model.

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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Derrell Poole
One thing you agree with?... Anyway; Tim. Did the car body have a round roof - like a caboose? It looks like might have but you examined the car.
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Tim Schreiner
I meant to say, for sure that I agree tha the car is the same one that used to sit next to the roundhouse. I'm not knowledgeable about the rest.
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Re: Eight wheel Caboose on C&Sng?

Robert McFarland
In reply to this post by Jeff Ramsey
The photos I found are on the Mountain West Digital Library site involving material owned by the Utah State Historical Society.-try typing in  utah&northern railroad.The url is saved to my computer so I can get back on using it,but is so horribly long it would take about 20 min. to type in,and when I try to duplicate using the easy way I run into a brick wall.
Pictures I found were:
U&N 11 hauling a passenger(or is it mixed) train containing baggage cars resembling box cars with roof overhang,end platforms and doors,mounted on passenger car trucks. ( utah&northern p.2)
U&N 100 with a pile driver and a round roofed MOW car with arch bar trucks.(utah&northern p.12)
U&N 97 with Utah Central waycar no2.(utah&northern p.10)
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