Wasn't there a book written several years back about the history of Denver Union Station?Would there be any info about the CC depot in that book.What about Union Station's pioneering use of electric lighting-both inside and arc-light floodlamps outside on the tower?
Let me get this straight .... you are suggesting the depot currently at Como was moved there
from Denver, and was originally a D&RG depot ? Have I got this right ?
In my 40+ years of knowing the Como depot and studying DSP&P history, I have never heard
of a depot being moved in to Como.
Also of interest is the window header woodwork that is peculiar to pre-1880 DSP&P depot
contruction. Had the depot come from D&RG/Denver, when did it come ? Is there documentation
to support this .... newspaper ? AFE ? And how did the early South Park woodwork get transferred
on this "new" depot ?
This is all news to me. Let's see your supporting evidence.
It is with great reservation that I say anything about Como in time gone by. The following is all in the "for what it is worth" department.
In 1985 the Colorado Historical Society, now History Colorado, had a Historic Building Inventory of Como done by Hugh Gardner. It does need to be noted that "railroad buildings" were not included in the report.
The "Pink House" is known as the Pat Gibbony house. The construction dates of the home are 1883-1886 based on Park County Clerk and Assessor records. The home was purchased in 1896 by Gibbony from K.J. Wallace for $700. Indications are the home was not on the property in 1883. By 1956 the home was sold by the Gibbony estate to George Hart. It is now owned by Carl Zimmerman and his wife and is open for tour during the August Railroad Days.
I was pleased to return to this forum to find a healthy discussion on structures being moved around the place for reuse. After all, the purpose of railroads is to move things, people included.
I have been closely examining plans new and old, photos new and old, along with information that has been provided to me of the Como depot.
I have been discussing my findings recently in the "Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum" and I point out here in advance that the Como depot was also restructured from used buildings. Not only that, but I point out using plans, measurements and photos that will show irrefutably, I believe that the building was assembled entirely, at the same time.
Everything that I point out can be checked and it is logical, makes sense, although being a little difficult to follow. It is very complicated, but it makes sense.
I have touched on the matter only in my posts but intend to discuss further just exactly when the Como depot was assembled in Como. You will find it fascinating how I uncover this as I have not gone into this in detail as yet.
But please C&S fans, before I proceed, read my my discussion on "Como Depot Revisited" 1 to 7 in the "Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum". Easy to find with a search.
Please post any questions or comments here as I am unlikely to notice them anymore in the other forum.
And breathe deep, relax and respond.
Around the time that David Tomkins said that he would never ever believe a word that I said, I was saying that I might be the best friend that he ever had. That is what I would like, to be his friend. Despite frustrations that I may have shown in the past.
David would be right not to believe everything that I said. Because I get things wrong. But sometimes I get things right too!
Lets have no more animosity, derision, slandering. It is not getting us anywhere. Lets start afresh.
I believe that I have something of value to show you. It comes from something that I understood already years ago. Now I can show you with some mathematics to go with it, which makes a big difference. And I can explain what I see better too, as my knowledge grows.
So read "Como Depot revisited" in the "Narrow gauge Discussion forum" posts one to seven and I would like to continue on from there, here.
I agree too John. This forum is open to anyone and shall remain that way. But....
Please refrain from starting a new topic for everything you post about. I will continue to move any related post you make back into your original thread "Denver to Como" until I tire of it and then they will just disappear. You can easily make sub topics under the original post. This way all of your thoughts and ideas about the depot are all located in the same thread. Thanks.
As you wish Darel. I am your guest.
It is morning for me here now. Last night before writing on this subject "Old Wounds", I deleted every post in relation to the former "Denver to Como" discussion that I had made. I would like to see others delete their posts as well.
For my part, I am staring from scratch. And everything regarding the Depot needs to be looked at in a new light. My perspectives have changed.
I am not interested in talking about where the depot came from, at the moment. Only wishing to show as best I can that the entire structure is recycled and how. Obviously later, there will be the topic where it came from, and I am working on that still also.
But then there is the inflatable matter of the K and in tennis terms the ball is not in my court. Here is the delivery. I remember reading that the pilot plow barely scrapped between the stone pillars. Without going back into what else I recall, Jerry Day gave me the dimensions of the K width wise. I can dig them up again but I know that the width of the pilot plow from memory was 9' 7 anda half inches or 10' 7 and a half inches. Now it need only for somebody to go to the door opening in question, the door opening that had a full doorjamb replacement on one side and measure across the stone at track level. If the measurement does not correspond with Jerry`s measurements, I will withdraw and concede that my memories on the matter are flawed. I know they are anyway, but I remember some of the "article".
It was I from Australia, never having been to the States that was aware of and made mention of the hacked door jambs before Debbie took photos of the doorjamb and posted them in the DSP&P group. So I knew something, and maybe I am wrong, as I have been before.
However, if I may say, it should be clear that I have a measure of intelligence for I could not be providing factual evidence in relation to the depot if I did not. I don`t need to be making up stories. I believe what I am saying about the K with conviction. Maybe I am wrong. Measuring the doorjamb will tell.
So I will assume that interested persons have read my recent posts in the NGDF and are up to date and fully aware that the Como Depot was completely rebuilt from numerous buildings that came from somewhere else and that this reconstruction can ONLY have taken place all at the same time and not in stages.
Being in the Carpentry and Joinery industry (largely Staircases), I showed the photo below to several of my builder friends to see what they could see in the photo below. One friend said the roof was full of ghouls and I replied that it was not full because one was sleeping on my couch. That`s figuratively speaking, I hope you get the idea however. That is how it feels for me. Just a normal guy, trying to run a home and business and somebody couch surfing on my couch that won`t shove off until I sort things out and "It" can return home!
It not easy to communicate with the other side but I am prompted to look at certain things again and again, and I have to work it out, what I am looking at. Like this photo below,
You will know most likely that you are looking at the telegraph wires board on the north wall. Three pieces of wood attached to the wall to cover a hole inline with other holes that ran along the west wall and are just the right size and hight to pass the TOB cog bracket through.
Now, I am going to be staying on the same subject although it may appear not so. We are discussing these pieces of wood on the wall in the photo.
Page 18, Bogie & Loop, July 2013 has a floor plan drawn by Brian Adams of the Gilman & DSP&P hotels showing how they were joined. If the window arrangement on the Gilman was the same on the south side as on the north side then the joining east wall of the DSP&P hotel would have intersected in the middle of a window.
To explain where I am leading, I am just going to bring up a photo of a window in the depot and I will explain below the photo what for.
Underneath the windowsill is flat piece of timber that has a shape cut into the ends. That shape can vary from building to building. Also underneath the windowsill is a bead that fits in the corner, butting under the window sill and over the aforementioned piece of wood. Of the three pieces of wood attached to the north wall covering the hole, what I am pointing out here is a piece of the same but cut in half and nailed to the wall, upside down from the way it would normally be. You can just see the shape in the right hand corner of the photo and it is a more commonly used profile than that of the depot.
Interesting thing about this upside down piece of wood in the top photo, it still has the bead attached that is meant to butt up under the window sill. And as you can see, importantly, these three pieces of wood that were used to cover the hole and eventually serve as the telegraph wires board, were fixed to the wall even before a bead was planted in the corner of the walls. And so, you can just picture in your mind the guy cutting and fixing the corner bead would have just given the bead that fits usually under the window sill a tap sideways to break it off, because it was in his way. And it snapped off at the closest nail. I know how this works. I am in the mind of the person who did this job.
Now for further explanation lets go back to my sample window, second photo. The window is surrounded by an architrave. In the case of the depot, the head architrave fits on top of the side pieces. Usually, the corners are mitred, as is the grooved piece of wood in the top photo.
So back to the second photo again for a moment, picture in your mind that the architrave over the window is mitred and how that mitre then corresponds to the piece of wood under the window sill. Now take those length images in your mind and correspond it to the two pieces of wood that I have been discussing on the north wall.
Now you are aware that I have been saying for a long time that the depot was not assembled in Como in 1879. Not this depot, anyway.
I feel very strongly and I hope you are following my thoughts, that a window frame in the Gilman hotel was cut through in a certain place where the DSP&P hotel had to be joined into the Gilman. I believe that those pieces of window architrave removed from the Gilman were used to patch the hole in the top photo.
So obviously then, the depot was being assembled at the same time and the "carpenters" scrounged what they could from next door to do any patching required.
So, as I was saying in an earlier post, This same type of grooved architrave was used in the baggage room same time to cover patches where the freight room joined the depot. An area difficult to define as the east and west walls do not seem to correspond, and the whole area is a jumble. However here is a photo showing that same grooved architrave as was used to cover the hole in the north wall. The only two places where this type of material was used.
Once again, as well as showing you pieces of scrap grooved architrave still with mitred ends used to cover patches on the wall and ceiling, one of the holes is visible in line with the covered hole in the north wall. So as well as everything else that I have pointed out, these scraps used in both the baggage room and the office are indicative that the whole building was assembled at the same time.
Now, I would bet my bottom dollar that nobody else has worked out what I have just shown you. And it just points out that what a shame it is and has always been that the owner of the depot will not cooperate with me. And that it is also a shame that the president of the HS has taken umbrage at something that I have said or done and no longer communicates. Sad state of affairs!
Anyway, it is my understanding that the hotels were closed at this time and the room at the back of the office was setup as a bedroom for use by the Dispatcher. That is why I was searching for information on this.
"Photos used by permission Copyright Ken Smith Photography All Rights Reserved.”
And it just points out that what a shame it is and has always been that the owner of the depot will not cooperate with me. And that it is also a shame that the president of the HS has taken umbrage at something that I have said or done and no longer communicates. Sad state of affairs!
Well John, it didn't take you long to throw in some derision when it was you who stated that you wanted to start afresh.
Anyways.... I still don't get what it is you hope to aquire by pointing all this out. Was the depot assembled with parts of other structures? Yes, I think we can all agree with you now "that it sure looks that way". How important is it that we all know every last detail? It is still just a wooden structure and most people don't give a care where it came from. Is that what bothers you?
Is it just a kudos you wish for? Or a plaque on the wall of the depot with your name on it?
For now, I'll continue to let this thread go on. But anymore comments about other members and friends will make this one go away real fast. I guess everyone will know what happened when it is gone.
Message understood Darel. It was not my intention to be 'having a go' at other people. And was just pointing out a difficulty.
I don`t care so much about kudos. As a member of the DSP&P HS I take my role seriously and I wish to explore the true history of the building. My next intended posts if I am still a guest here will be to discuss matters like why would the depot be positioned at an angle to the track but positioned square on to a building that would be positioned 100 feet away that as legend would have it was built after the depot`s arrival. It is a matter that must cause confusion and internal conflict to fellow historians and I wish to clear up the matter.
Along with all of that, the real reason that there is a newer roof over the office as it appears in the earliest photos.
Darel, I am assuming that you are getting complaints about me. And I do understand that when folks have understood something to be one way all of their lives, it can be sometimes confronting to transition to another reality. Not having a go at anybody, I am like that too, it is human nature.
Bottom line, I want to show you what I think I understand. And most importantly, I don`t want to be left telling you, I want it to be discussed level headedly between us all. Like that, sharing ideas, like Weston`s recently recommending that I reread parts of Bogie & Loop leads me/us to more understanding.
Nobody wants to go about being a rectum, myself included. To some, it may appear that way. I have said it before, I regret that but lets just stay focused on examining the past and not egos. The matter is not about us!
Frankly, wishfully conclusively, I was not talking about derision, just regretful circumstances in my last post. I don`t know what else to say. For my part, I have wiped the slate clean as best I can in removing my previous posts.
Understanding that the depot is rebuilt from other buildings makes it easier to join the dots when examining the building.
For example, as I had mentioned earlier, the room that I call the oil room in the baggage room was there from the time the depot was established in Como. The wall with an entrance doorway is half the internal width of the depot, a half wall, so it could not have been introduced later.
So then naturally, the sidewall to the oil room was also their the whole time, and the inside has never been painted.
And so, it would have been extremely difficult to paint the external wall without getting a splash of paint on the unpainted wall pushed up near where the outside wall sections are butted together. So the outside wall has never been painted it seems, in Como.
So lets have a look at the other side of the unpainted wall. It is evident that shelving has been situated along this wall. Battens are still present on the outside wall and it can be seen where they were against the oil room wall. In front of the shelves is a lift out hatch from the floor. There have been lots of holes drilled through the wall too. Everything is there for a reason! Always!
The shelving was actually an enclosed cabinet otherwise there would not be marks on the ceiling in the location of the front of the shelves.
If you are not familiar with gravity cells, do a google. Here is a photo of spent gravity cells laying on the ground behind the depot.
Here are more amongst the trash on the ground near the hatch hole in the floor.
So having read up on the battery cells through Google, it seems very evident to me that this was the battery room.
Later, it became the building behind the depot office. I don`t have time tonight to load all those photos of that but may do later.
But have a look at this photo. That timber attached to the wall running just under the roof of what I call the sleeping quarters is an electrical conduit which leads to the building at the rear. The conduit is drooping. Identify where that conduit ends and in the next photo I will show where those wires entered the depot.
Disregard my notes on the wall but where I wrote the word balance, the wires are still left hanging from the hole through the wall. Bit hard to see but they are there. Looks like there were telephones or morse code machines? below identified by the green silhouettes.
Aside from this discussion, speaking of silhouettes, the green silhouette near the lattice divider is much like the shape of the clock mount. There is a hole in the floor below that point same as there is in the ceiling.
And the cog bracket again that lines up with the timbers for the telegraph wires board. And the odd window too. so much to see.
Before I joined any groups of any sort, I read online the memoirs of somebody who lived in Como in those early days. The room at the back of the office was set up as a bedroom for somebody who had to write out papers in the middle of the night. I understand now that that was the Dispatcher. The hotel was closed, the Dispatchers building not yet built. There were many people sleeping in tents. The trains coming and going at all hours of the night had to stop outside Como and cover the lamp so as not to wake the folk in the tents as the train came through. That particularly stuck in my mind because I would have thought the noise of the train would be the waking factor.
I also remember reading that there were three lights in Como at that time. One in the engine house boiler room where the electricity was generated. Another in the place where the person did his writing. "The Dispatcher" as I understand it now. And there was a third light, to show him the way in the mid of night.
I have written about these memoirs before, long before I realised that the battery room was in the baggage room and that the adjoining oil room was where he wrote his dispatch forms and what do you call it? Telexed the stations down the line of what it is they are meant to do.
This little box on the wall look the size to be holding "Train order cards?"
Just to finish off as I know some folk are against what I am doing. The depot has been restored and repainted now. Obviously careful attention has been given to recording detail but I have no idea of how well this detail was understood. And I, without wishing to brag, I am really really good at detecting things. And there are amongst you people who want to know, to explore, to discover. Otherwise you would not have read this far.
Some of the photos that I have used have been provided to me. Some, I found on the www.
But most,"Photos used by permission Copyright Ken Smith Photography All Rights Reserved.”
In this image of the depot, gazing upon the photo will show that the wall of the hotel had two steps down towards the back of the hotel. We can deduce from this that the hotel roof was much like the roof of the stone roundhouse set inside stone end walls.
So when it was decided to build another story on the hotel with dormer windows, the end wall would need to be altered. And also the roof hanging over the end of the hotel would have made all work difficult working over the roof of the depot.
So for reasons of safety and convenience, the depot would have been moved aside. It had been moved before when the depot was fitted up against the hotel in the first place. See in the top photo the two patches over the freight room, replaced tiles. Lets have a look below those patches, at the floor. The reposted image may not come up to clearly here because it has been reduced in size. There is a patch in the floor under the replaced tiles on the south west corner of the building. You would never find it unless you were looking for it.
And the other patched floor under the other patch in the freight room roof.
Of course there were other patches too at the other end of the building in the office. They can be seen in the floor where the clock was mounted to a piece of old counter top and along the north wall also, ceiling and floor.
Hole in ceiling along north wall,
and directly below in the floor.
Of coarse, we can`t see the patches in the roof because the roof had to be altered so snow would not collect against the hotel wall, on the roof of the depot. I do not know if the roof ridge over the office ran formerly all the way to west wall of the depot or if there was a hip rafter on the north west corner joining the north and west side planes of the roof.
But if it was a hip rafter it would have supported the little bit of roof in front of the hotel, caressed the corner of the hotel wall and finished approximately where the older and replaced roof tiles meet. So looking at that particular point from the back of the depot would be the location of the lower part of the dogleg in the roof ridge line in this photo.
On the other hand, I do not see a hip rafter inside the roof in this photo, and it would cross the very corner of the buildings walls. What I do notice is that when the north wall was altered to support the revised roof, the "carpenters" did not even bother to cut an angle to the roof rafter where it rested upon the wall, just left square. Not easy to see but that is how it is.
Anyway, the roof was altered from exactly what, "undecided." Here is a photo showing joins in the trim outside the building. And these joins in the trim would be thirty feet apart, the depth of the hotel.
Another angle. I hope it is visible in the area circled that the roof fascia moulding would have butted into the back of the hotel wall, there.
It made no sense to think that the depot would have been built at an angle to the track, square to where the Gilman would be built at a future date, theoretically. But it was built, with sections of wall in the north wall. Starting from the west side, a half section of wall, half the internal width of the depot. Then the piece of wall with the unusual window that would bring the wall level with the back wall of the depot, Then a piece of wall the internal width of the office north/south. And last, a section of wall from another half section of wall. The other part of that half section of wall being used on the south outside wall of the office, along with yet another half section of wall, joined together at the dividing wall to the sleeping quarters on the east end of the office.
Easy, is`nt it?
There is still the matter of the different cladding on the north wall. If you download the file of the picture of the Pacific Hotel and I stress the file not the picture itself, you will see upon enlarging the image that the north wall is timber shingles, just like the roof was or is now. Behind the end veranda post can be seen the glazing bars of the window of the depot. It is that clear. Also, the lines in the hotel brickwork are clear, but the north wall itself appears all pixelated. That is because it is actually timber shingles or tiles, as you wish.
I think it is still tiles or shingles in this photo taken much later.
And then, at this late stage of the railroads life the tiles were replaced with clap board. There certainly is not a great history of paint on this wall. No or little primers or undercoats of paint.
Don`t get confused, just because the depot was moved and altered before or in1883 as shown in the first knownphoto, it does not necessarily mean that it was first reconstructed in 1879. We can look at that again later.
Most of these photos are courtesy of Ken Smith photography. I was going to describe how the building behind the office was the battery room using Ken`s photos. But perhaps if readers are that interested then they can buy Ken`s CD photo album "DSP&P Memories and then some" Check out the ceramic insulators attached to the walls around the outbuilding, the row of posts leading to the roundhouse. This is a great photo album for the south park fan. Many hundreds of great pics from many areas of the south park line.
"Photos used by permission Copyright Ken Smith Photography All Rights Reserved.”