Denver to Como 1881

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Denver to Como 1881

John Droste
Darrel,
I am starting afresh. I know and understand much more now than before. The picture continues to grow.
I have to do this as it seems nobody is grasping what I am saying as yet.
I will go slowly, one step at a time.
 Thanks.

 I have been studying the Como depot for many years now. From the first, I knew and understood that the depot was reconstructed from different buildings. My real break came in understanding where these buildings came from was when I realised that in its former life, the building had stood end on to the track. That is all I am going to show tonight.



The photo above is of the north wall in the Como depot. I could talk for hours about it but the focal point right now is the shape and size of the metal casting of the cog bracket. When going to the next photo keep in mind the position in hight that the horizontal shaft passes through the bracket.



 Now the next photo is of the North West corner of the Depot and it can be seen where the shaft from the train order board passed through the West wall. You can use the position of the hole to correlate that the three pieces of timber nailed to the North wall alongside are at the exact hight of the cog bracket in the former photo. The three pieces of wood are covering a hole the size of the cog bracket. Exactly!



The photo above is also looking in a North West direction. In this photo the hole for the cog bracket to pass through has been left uncovered. It is at the same hight. The wall between this wall and the north wall also has such a hole. I don't need to show a photo, the point is made.
 Where this Station building sat prior to Como, it was end on to the passing track. That made it easy for me to find. With following posts, I will show you two of the three buildings that came from Denver to become a part of the Depot. More thoroughly than I did before, I will explain the history of each building, better than before.
 I will explain why the holes in the wall are such as they are.

 But if you are still thinking that the office was an addition after the fact in Como, Thats Crap. And I will explain all that in detail in time as well.

 For what it is worth and it will also need a lot of careful explaining, the grooved wood you see tacked to the wall and ceiling in the green room with mitred end and the same style wood with mitre to cover the hole in the North wall, those pieces of wood came from the window architraves removed from the Gilman hotel when the two hotels were being joined together. Long story, I will get to it, later.

"Photos used by permission  Copyright Ken Smith Photography All Rights Reserved.”
www.steamandmorephotography.com

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Re: Denver to Como 1881, Two of the three Denver buildings.

John Droste
Here is a map showing the location of the DRG station. It is in the Northern crosshair. 1872.
As per Kenton Forrest`s book, "Denver`s Railroads" also.
Mr Forrest described the DRG Station as "longer than it was wide". That was my clue to seek out more information on this station building.


Here is a link to the DPL files 1880, below. It describes the DRG station as being near 11th & 12th St on Wynkoop St. The freight depot is located on the South West corner of 19th & Wynkoop. That building (freight depot) was across the road from the location on the map above, different buildings.
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/8670

And now the City Directory in 1881. Both the Passenger and Freight Depots are now reported to be between 11th & 12th, Wynkoop.http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/9102

So just for the fun of it. Lets look at the 1879 directory. It describes both the Freight and Passenger depot as being on the South West corner of 19th & Wynkoop. WOW!
 http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/8369


Each time the Passenger station is in a different location, and none are where the map shows the location, above.
So what does Kenton Forrest say exactly on page11, "The wooden depot, longer than it was wide, served the D&RG until the bridge over Cherry Creek washed out and the railroad moved in with the DSP&P."

 So the issue is confusing to a degree.
1878, Passenger & Freight, S/W corner 19th & Wynkoop.
1877, Same as 78.
1876, Same again.
1875, ?
1874, Still S/W corner 19th & Wynkoop.
1873, Freight and passenger depots, South East corner, Wynkoop and K Streets. K no doubt became 11th Street.
So there has been backward and forwarding with the both the Passenger and Freight depots. Perhaps we can develop a better picture in the mind by looking at photos.
Here is a photo taken from the roof or tower of the Union Station. It will be 1881 because the grounds of the Union Station are still undeveloped. The D&RG station can be seen as per the map on the corner of 19th & Wynkoop Sts. Find the Ben Delaney whiskey bar on the very corner. It is just behind that.
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/88627

Here is a close up image that somebody helped me with. The train order board signal is circled and as it would be placed according to the row of holes in the wall in Como. Remember, this is not the entire Como depot, only part thereof.

Now this where it finally gets interesting. I am going to post a photo of the same area taken earlier in the 1870`s, 1873? from the Kansas Pacific station. The D&RG station is not there in the photo at this earlier stage but another building is nearby to the location in the far right of the photo. For what it is worth this photo is an extract from a much larger photo and I cross referenced the facades of the buildings in 19th Street in the larger photo and the photo taken from the roof of the Union Station. We are looking at the corner of 19th & Wynkoop. The D&RG Freight depot which does not concern us is in the background. It is the building on the far right that is the issue. It becomes part of the Como Depot.

Below is a photo of the rear of the Como depot. The same end wall of the building that you see in Denver. Same placement of window, same short eaves, same roof pitch.

Below is a link to a drawing showing the building as it was positioned in Wynkoop St. 1874, the streets are marked so a bit of searching will find the building in Wynkoop Street. Take notice that there is a space between this building and the Ben Delaney bar on the corner. In that space the D&RG station was reassembled. From the roof of the Union Station, this building is out of sight because of the larger D&RG station in front of it. I will go into detail about how the sections of wall, floor and roof were reused in Como another day but the lengthways walls were used to surround the freight room. Not the roof or the floor there, just the walls. Its complicated and its for later.

http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll39/id/8
I apologise for making this post so large. Had to do it.
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, Two of the three Denver buildings.

John Droste
I forgot to mention. Because the D&RG station was moved to Wynkoop Street near 19th, a shaft had to be inserted through the building to reach the original TOB lever arm location, As I understand it.
 The original location of the Station would have had the TOB arm leaving the side of the building as per normal. In that case as was the case in Como the hight of that horizontal shaft was governed by the overhanging eaves of the roof.
 With the shaft leaving the end wall near 19th Street, that hight could have been any hight because the eaves were not a governing factor.

 I think they just left the lever attachment where it was when the building was moved and they just cut the row of holes to suit the location the TOB lever.
jd
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, Two of the three Denver buildings.

John Droste
I am not pretending to know everything. I can use help. The offer of information that I seem unaware of would be great thank you.

Some of what I am showing you I have discussed before, some is new and has not been mentioned previously. It`s a growing awareness process. Becoming aware of something leads to more questions, leads to more discoveries and understanding, and so on. Step by step, for all of us.

I am posting the Jackson photo of the D&RG station again, along with three other photos from Mr Jackson that are all apparently taken on the same day. The cars in the grounds are in the same location. Same, (very few) people are appearing in several of the photos. The grounds of the Union Station are still in a construction site phase.
 It is important to establish a close as possible time when these photos were taken. It will link into numerous other factors as we expand on what we know.
 People will be wondering how these buildings were moved. They were cut down into panels and they were loaded onto an A frame on a car for transport. How do I know? Because there is one such A framed car in the first photo. It is in the middle of the narrow gauge train parked in the KP yards. Look above the D&RG station to find it.
 I believe it was common practise for railroads to move buildings this way. After all, railroads are for moving things. That is their expertise.
 It looks to me like these photos were taken on a very hot day, a public holiday as there is so little activity. An opportunity for Mr Jackson that he could not miss.

http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/88627


http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/84036


http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/84035


http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/88640
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, Two of the three Denver buildings.

John Greenly
In reply to this post by John Droste
John,

Here for convenience is part of your first post:

The D&RG Freight depot which does not concern us is in the background. It is the building on the far right that is the issue. It becomes part of the Como Depot.

Below is a photo of the rear of the Como depot. The same end wall of the building that you see in Denver. Same placement of window, same short eaves, same roof pitch.




I've made for you an enlargement of the building that you are considering, on the far right in the photo you posted above.  Here it is:



Although this image is poor, it is certain that the dark area in the end wall- window, door or whatever it may be- is not at all in the same location as the window in the end of the Como depot.  The Como window is much farther to the left in the wall, and a lot narrower, than the one in the building in Denver.

If you look at my posts here you will find that I have done some careful analysis of photographs to determine dimensions of several objects of interest.  I can say with certainty that there is not enough information in this Denver photo to justify a claim that the end of this building has similar proportions to the Como end wall- that is, the ratios of width to height and roof pitch.  It would require quite accurate knowledge of the very acute angle of the view to that building end to be able to do this.

I hope you can accept this post as a contribution in good faith.  I have no preconceived notion about any of this.

sincerely,
John Greenly
Lansing, NY

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Re: Denver to Como 1881, Two of the three Denver buildings.

John Droste
John,
Your enlargement of the photo is brilliant. Thank you. Double thank you.
Your enlargement shows a large door in the sidewall which is fantastic.
I have shown the best photo I can of the rear of the depot. The two photos are not of exactly the same angle so some bearing needs to be used to allow for that.
 I say that in the Denver photo there appears to be more wall space this side of the window than the far side. As is the Como wall in question. Also I will add that the top of the window is also in relationship with each of the photos.
 My friend, it is very early days in this discussion. Watch with what I come forward with.

 But for now, because of your enlarged photo. The whole reassembly of these buildings in the Como Depot is not straight forward. The only walls from this building below used in the office area were the two end walls. One wall as we see it now, the other reused in the North wall, to the right of the section of wall with the TOB lever that has a window a part of that comes from a period of architecture that seems to go back decades. Not that I can pretend to be an expert on American architecture periods. Maybe somebody, would love it if somebody could date when that architectural period came about. I have a lot to say about that window and where I think it came from. For now, all indications to me are that that style of architecture originated around the Civil War era. Who can help me with that?

 The lengthways walls of this building in question John, were reused around the Freight room. This is a huge conversation but I will just focus on those walls now as you have brought up in the photo, the doorway in the side.

I am going to post a photo of a doorway in the Como depot freight room.

If you examine the photo closely...The original frame opening was much higher. I will post a photo of the outside also. It seems to me that the original door openings were for entrance of a horse drawn wagon, even the ones that had the round canvas top, like in the old movies.
 Looking at photos from inside and out. The door entrance has been reduced in hight, requiring replaced cladding above the window sash.
 Maybe you call a sash differently in America, we do reference some things differently in Australia. A sash is the opening part or internal part of a window that sits inside the actual frame. There is no external frame for the window sash in this doorway. And perhaps it helps that I am a woodworker by profession, I can tell that the sash in its normal circumstance is meant to be vertical as opposed to the horizontal position that it is in, in the photos.

 John, thank you again. As I explain the exact placements of the sections of floor, roof and walls as they came up from Denver, also explaining the most important relationship between the depot and the hotel next door, and my understanding surrounding the third building, and where rolling stock was used in various parts of the depot, a fuller image of the 'greater history' will emerge. With each facet of my research, just like the matter of the TOB, I already knew what I was looking for before I went and found it. Non the less, it takes time and deliberation.

 
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, Two of the three Denver buildings.

John Droste
John, here is a map of the area that must have been made only a short time later.
The two buildings in question are no longer there.
Sorry, but can't recall who where this map originated from or the date it was made. Somebody will know.



As far as gaining perspectives goes, this map helps a lot.
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, The illusion of the "additions"

John Droste


I can see two reasons why it would be conceived that the office was extended onto the Depot in two stages.
One, Because of the replaced roof over the office.
And two, Because it looked that way superficially inside the building with building being reconstructed from bits and pieces, as it was.



I don't like blanket statements when people do not back up what they are saying. I am going to make a broad blanket statement now, just so you know where I will lead this part of the conversation. And its 'gonna take some explainin'. But here we go.

 "The original roof of the office came from the building discussed in Denver. It will have had to be altered because of snow buildup against the Hotel. Whats more, in the process of rebuilding the roof the depot had to be moved, towards the track. The reason that it had to be moved is because there was a window in the South end of the Hotel and the rearranged roof now an extension of the remainder of the Depot would have obscured the Hotel window." Thats a blanket statement that will take a lot of explaining. It will also answer many other questions unanswered about the depot.
 I only found this because I knew that it would be there. Just like finding the TOB signal in Denver. In the photo above can be just seen a dark patch in the middle of the South wall of the Hotel, just behind the roof ridge line of the Depot. Thats the top of the window. I included the top image so that readers can reference the hight against windows at the front of the Hotel.
 Before I go on to start another post, please readers observe that not only is there a new roof over the depot office but there are also patches of replaced roof tiles over the Freight room. One of the signals that told me the depot was moved after its construction in Como, 1881.
 
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, The illusion of the "additions"

John Droste
I will deal with the depot being moved first, after it had been constructed in Como.

The building was lifted with slings that dropped through the roof and with a bearer under the floor to spread the load, shifted. Only a short distance. Because of the new roof over the office there is no evidence of the slings as there is over the freight room. But there is evidence inside.
 But first, two photos showing the patched floor in the Freight room directly below the patches in the roof.

Above, you would never notice the short replacement boards in the above photo in a 130 years, unless you knew that they would be there.
Below, the patch is far more recognisable.

This old oak counter top is sticking through one of the holes in the office floor. Not a great photo but you can see the patched timbers around the counter in the floor. Making the hole a similar size to those in the freight room.

For a while I thought that the office had been lifted and turned, hence the writing on the photo suggesting such. But there is the hole in the ceiling. I will show the hole in the floor in another photo. But look first at the green profiles against the wall. Telegraph equipment and or phones. Lower silhouette looks like it had bells on the top, like a phone. But it is the Silhouette in green. I suspect that the Oak counter was stuck in this hole first before being replaced to the other hole.

 Before going on to show the corresponding hole in the floor, look carefully at the join in the wall in the middle of the green area. Thats where the ancient section of wall and window starts. That join is not visible all the way to the ceiling because some of the top cladding would have to be removed to extend the wall up when the pitch of the roof was altered.
And one more thing, if you know about how roofs are pitched. A ceiling joist is attached to the top of the wall alongside the roof rafters to stop the roof from dropping and spreading apart. The ceiling joist and rafters become an A frame in other words. Then, perpendicular to the ceiling joists the ceiling cladding is attached on. Like nailing floorboards to floor joists but upside down. In the photo above, the ceiling joists and ceiling cladding are running the wrong way as they should in accordance with the outside roof line. Because the roof was changed, as mentioned earlier.

Photo above. There is the patched hole in the floor far right. The "A" shows the join in the wall, again.
So there's a few things to think about.
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, The Hotels

John Droste
Earlier on, I think my first post, I said that the three pieces of wood used to cover the hole of the TOB came from the Gilman Hotel and were pieces of window architraves removed when the DSP Hotel was joined to the Gilman. A rather outlandish statement. So I will qualify that in this post. Also the matter of the window in the South Wall of the Pacific Hotel which I also mentioned.
 To start,
 I have taken some photos of the plan of the Pacific Hotel as per the Bogie & Loop article July 2013 and a photo of the Pacific Hotel shown in the October 2013. I am showing those photos here for reference for the benefit of the Society.
 Also, the owner of the depot has been kind enough to provide me with a copied page from a "Buildings, Bridges & Structures" book of the day showing all the room dimensions of both the Pacific Hotel and also the Depot. Thank you David, you have been a great help.




So looking at the dimensions of the rooms and considering the floor plan drawn by Brian Adams above. 1st floor, Dining room, 28 x 42 feet.  Now hang on there, we need to think about this. The entire 1st floor of the Gilman Hotel is not going to be a Dining room. So it must be the DSP&P hotel that had the kitchen on the South end that had this large dining room alongside. Common sense tells me that if you build a double story building you can not tear down the entire back wall to create a larger dining room on the lower floor. I mean, if you try to do that the weight of the second story above would simply cave the whole lot in. No argument, full stop! There is something wrong with what is or was thought.
 2nd floor, Hall, 6 x 98.5 feet. Hello, Again! Where is a 98.5 feet long hallway going to go if there is a narrow connection to the Gilman? Not a big long hallway behind the row of windows upstairs. No!
The hallway is ten inches short of the length of the DSP Hotel. Enough room for a row of bricks and a timber framework, on one end. And obviously, no need to build a wall on the Northern end when the intention is to join to the Gilman Hotel. That is what happened.
 The 20&1/3rd feet x 30 feet extension was not built behind the DSP Hotel, it was built between the two hotels to join them together.
 With the room sizes, and the location of the chimneys, I can pretty well draw up the internal plan of the Pacific. I can do that because of my familiarity with the trades. But am only dealing with what is most important for now.
 To emphasise a point. Had anybody ever thought about how the roof of the Pacific would be supported if there was only a narrow void between the hotels? The dining room was 42 feet deep, inside room size. The Addition, 20&1/3rd feet deep outside dimension. That would place the back wall almost under the Pacific Hotel roof ridge line. There should be no doubt that when the Addition was planned, it was with the intention of supporting the forthcoming Pacific Hotel roof.
 I said before that I find stuff because I know first what I am searching for. I had no expectation at all that the Adam`s drawing would be incorrect however.
 So, naturally, there would have been a window at the end of the 98.5 foot long hallway. Hallways just don't end in a dark hole. No, a window is normally placed in the end to bring light to the hall, and fresh air.
 Another hallway upstairs, 4&3/4 x 42&2/3rd feet. That hallway will be behind the open window above the dining room, running the length of the original DSP Hotel. Bedrooms to each side.
 
 Anyway, apart from perhaps the hotel, Everything that I am writing about is really about Jay Gould. He had control of the D&RG around the time the Union Station opened. He had also taken over the DSP&P by then. He made the two railroads work together, do not forget.
 He also, having financed another Denver railroad, had control over it as well, I will demonstrate as time goes on.
 But back to the window architraves from the Gilman covering the hole of the TOB. It was not only the window architraves that were reused when the windows were removed. The windows were reused as well. You can see the type windows in the Gilman hotel above, and you can see these same windows in the Switchman's shanty attached to the South end of the Depot, as in the photo below. Photo provided by Bob Schoppe President of the DSP&P HS. Thank you Bob.

 When I show you the measurements you will understand that the shanty walls were made from rolling stock. The roof, part of the roof that came from the building in Denver but was not used over the office. Later with that.
 Still along way to go. I hope you folk are beginning to get a new picture in your mind of what went on in 1881, as the Union Station opened in Denver.

Will finish with this photo below that the President of the DSP&P HS provided me. Note the shadow cast off the depot on the North end. And the shadow of the back of the DSP&P Hotel. But no shadow where there was meant to be the narrow void between the two hotels.

 Okay with that Cliff?
 
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, The Denver building, again.

John Droste
The return section of the Como Depot, Office & Sleeping quarters are just over 36 feet long. Shorter than the structure that stood in Wynkoop Street, early in the 1870`s. I explained that the walls were used to surround the Freight room, with internal dimensions 18&3/4 x 19 feet, inside measurements. Add those sizes together and you get more than 36 feet. It is more complicated than that.
 President of the DSP&P HS Bob Schoppe sent me some photos during the rebuilding of the Depot. Something had come up that the builder simply could not explain. Neither could I, at the time.
In the baggage room, the room between the Freight room and Waiting room the floor joists were shorter than the width of the depot. The remaining space had to be patched in. The patched floor joists in the area where the builder is standing were not of the same standing as the rest of the floor timbers and had to be replaced. I don't need to be there with a tape measure to understand that this section of floor is the same width as the office floor. Because they of coarse, came from the same building originally in Denver.

 For what it is worth and I may refer to it later as it comes along, the batten marks on the wall were for the original battery storage shelves in Como before the building behind became the battery room. I will just make references to this matter as we go along.
This also had the builder bamboozled. The photo below is of the underside of the wall that separated the freight room from baggage room. I remember Bob writing that Mike the builder was perplexed by what he saw here. Two floor joists side by side under the wall. To the one side, this side the floor joists needed packing up, as you can see. This is still the floor joists or should I say section of floor frame from the narrower building. Am thinking this floor section was 7 to 8 feet long.

That means that there would be extra roof to be reused as well. There was. On top of the Switchman's shanty. I will show it later with measurements.
The length of the office and Sleeping quarters was determined by the sizes of the wall panels that were used. I will detail that exactly later because that is something very very interesting.
 But this all means that there still must be some extra wall left over from that narrower building. For I had said that none of the lengthways walls of the office in Como came from that narrower building in Denver. It will make sense more when I do drawings, I promise.
I am of mixed minds about this still. I have two theories. One theory is that the section of wall with the shorter window below photo is also from that other building. Whatever it was.  Somebody may know? It had been there in Wynkoop Street for a long time already. The flooring was rotten and worn. Someone told me that the building with Ben Delaney written on it was a Whiskey bar. So if folk know that much then they may also know about this other building a few doors down.

Notice that both the short window and the freight house door entrance both do not have the Fretwork above the window, like the other windows. I am not fully convinced as both short window and door have a different paint history over the heads. Will go into that later.
 But anyway, the return wall of the office. See the window in the corner. That wall is from the original DRG passenger Station. An end wall.

"Photo used by permission  Copyright Ken Smith Photography All Rights Reserved.”
www.steamandmorephotography.com
I forget to acknowledge Ken Smith sometimes, as he requested. His No Frills photo CD`s are great. This one "DSP&P, memories and Then Some." Huge collection of very high quality photos of DSP related stuff.

Dont get bored. I have yet to discuss the third building from Denver, its history and what I think happened to it. Besides the part in the North Wall I mean.
 And the first Como Depot, what I think happened to it. Where it was located and so on. I`m having a guess. Maybe we will gather the same idea so think about it. Platform for the Como depot was 2,410 Sq feet. There was another platform too. 2,172 Sq feet, For the 6 x 11 foot oil storage shed. Will leave you with that penny dropping.
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, Jay Gould & the 3rd building from Denver

John Droste
I have decided to go in a different direction now. This is a theory that began for me years ago now. I want to talk about this theory and I would like discussion on it, please.

 I will slowly go through all the circumstantial factors that say yay to the theory since I first went searching for clues. It will take several posts to collate. This matter intrigues me most of all, at present.

 My theory is that a Houston & Texas Central Station was supplied to the Colorado Central by Jay Gould to become the Colorado Central Depot in Denver. Becoming redundant, Gould having control of the DSP&P, D&RG and Colorado Central still, sought to reuse the buildings in his push to reach Leadville. Parts of that building going on to become part of the Como Depot and the remainder then being moved to become a part of the Buena Vista depot along with the 1st Como depot as well. 1881 still.
 I believe there were events in Buena Vista that year that may support this theory. I have not studied the history of BV. I need input of supporting evidence, please.
-------------------------------
 I have established that part of the Como Depot was the D&RG depot already, "without acknowledgement" as it is.
 
Looking through all the City Directory records, year by year, the D&RG always sold their tickets from a City centre establishment. The location of that almost changed year by year. Never was it advertised that tickets were sold at the Station, although I guess they would have.

So why would the Como depot have such a fancy ticket widow? In fact, why are there two ticket windows?

 There is one small one, between the baggage room and waiting room.


 And one large one. Some photos of the larger ticket window.



"Photos above used by permission  Copyright Ken Smith Photography All Rights Reserved.”

www.steamandmorephotography.comAnd to explain bit. As pointed out earlier, looking at the North wall, there are joins in the wall half the width of the depot. And that join in the wall is just behind this 'trellis' counter. For want of a better word!

What the two photos show is that in the half section of wall that has the ticket window, there is a double layer of cladding to each side of the ticket window. Rain, washing down the inside of the wall has exposed the internal layer of cladding as the water and dirt seeped through the outside cladding.
 This would need to be done to fit a ticket window in an existing wall that has a lift up window that slides up inside the wall. Cut a hole, insert the ticket window, clad over the wall again, refit architraves and mouldings to the ticket window.
 It`s something that I had noticed. And it will not be theory.

Probably a good idea for readers to check out the Section in the DSP&P HS website on the restorations of the Buena Vista depot. I am a member of the Society and am going to borrow some photos for reference to my theory.

Below is a photo of a ticket window being installed in the BV depot during its restoration. Odd, but the original ticket window had vanished somewhere so one was made, copied from that of the Como Depot because the dimension sizes matched.


 Will begin a new post to further this particular matter of discussion.
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, Jay Gould & the 3rd building from Denver/2

John Droste
My interest in the ticket window began years ago.

I set out to find out if there was a railroad that carried the star in a circle flag as in the shape in the ticket window corbels.



Was introduced to Texas historian MR A. T. Kott from Texas. He informed me that there was ever only one railroad that carried that design in their flag. He provided me this image of the H&TC flag.



I googled the H&TC. The H&TC operated each side of the Civil war and shut down for a time sure in. Jay Gould, in the earlier stages of creating his empire and later taking control of the UP, swallowed up the H&TC along with many other railroads.

Think of this wall below with the window not as a piece to fill in a vacant area, think of it as a piece of wall no longer needed in regards to the rest of the building that it came from.



Obviously, the architecture will be from a much older era of American history. I do not profess to be an expert on that but there seems little sense that relatively new buildings would be recycled into the construction of other buildings, with a different architectural style.
 Now as I said before, I know little of BV history but I think it was a relatively new city or town. So why would the BV depot or part of it I should say have the same architectural style as this window architecture has?



Very clearly, or so it seems to my mind, the BV depot has had an extension and the connection of those two buildings becomes visible here in this photo.



http://www.dspphs.org/Buena-Vista-Depot.html

Thats a start, more later.
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, Corrections

John Droste
I was wrong when I made the statement that the Como depot was moved forward towards the track to clear the hallway window of the Hotel next door. I will explain my change of point of view as best I can but it seems that the North end of the Depot was in view for some time before the Depot was moved, around earlier 1883. Still saying that the depot buildings were brought to Como 1881 after or very near the opening time of the Denver Union Station.
 It seems that it is not perfectly clear when that was. The D&RG in such difficult circumstances, began operating out of the Union, "before the paint had dried", Kenton Forrest. Seating for the passenger terminal arrived late, but by the time of the official opening, business was underway.



Explaining my change of mind. I do not think that the kitchen part of the DSP&P hotel had been started when the depot was assembled, 1881. In the above photo, take note that there was a doorway to the kitchen. And above the door, there is a banner blowing in the breeze from a horizontal pole protruding from the wall. I am of mixed minds. Was this initially a seperate business to the hotel?


In the photo above, the doorway to the "Kitchen" has been filled in. Somewhere in the transition to the Pacific Hotel, in the modifications to the hotel, the closing of this doorway was part of it.
Here is a link to the Greg Kazel collection,
http://www.narrowgauge.org/ngc/html/excursion4/gkazel/excursion4-como.html

In the photo below, I am pointing out the places with pencil points to the joins in the walls that extended each side of the original DSP&P Hotel construction. It is hard to see, maybe easier on the Greg Kazel photo directly. The architectural symmetry of the Hotel and extensions become obvious.


So just to explain, speaking of Symmetry. The entrance to the DSP&P is not in the centre of the building. It is to the left and it is simply a matter of logic in understanding why. With the upstairs hallway being 6 feet deep with the rear wall of the extension being 20 odd feet back from the front of the building, the only place for the staircase would be just inside the double door entrance and turning to the right. It would have been a double flight of stairs most likely with a landing where the stairs returned to meet the hallway that ran down the centre of the hotel upstairs. By this I mean the hallway that ran east west, not the 98.5 foot long hallway.
 Why am I so confident of this? Because I design staircases for houses and build them. I get it. And imagine then, the only alternative would be to build the stairs beyond the upstairs hallway which means that lodging patrons would have to walk halfway through the dining room to reach the stairs. Which of coarse is bad design. That is why the double door entrance is to the left.

But to get to the crunch.

Refresh your mind set that the Como depot is made up of other buildings. The window at the back of the depot did not need to be made to look representative of windows of windows coming from the original D&RG building. As such, the left side or south side of the return section of the depot was also out of sight. The left side did not need a fake brace manufactured as did the right side.

Hmmm, okay, laugh. Further correction, I am not going to start this post all over.

Oh this becomes difficult. Help! Laugh! When the direction of the roof was changed over the office, "as discussed earlier", the north wall would have been extended up to the restructured roof line. Perhaps reason to clad the North wall differently in this process if longer studs were fixed in the wall for stiffening. But I don't know for certain.
 The bracing was made obviously after the roof was altered. And obviously it was done for decorative purposes.
It seems obvious, I feel that it is obvious that the depot would not have been moved after the fact that the roof was altered.
 Which leaves then that the cosmetic braces were attached after the depot was moved away from the hotel. Because the wall would not have been visible before hand.
 At this point I am going to continue with another short post to finish the "correction"
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, Corrections2

John Droste
Continued from last post:


Photo taken from the Como depot facebook page. Thanks.
And therefore the reason for the double cladding on the north wall because the simple packing boards were not going to be acceptable in full view. You can see the underneath cladding being where the clap board fell off. Some of it had painted signage like just above the telegraph wires board and TOB hole. Probably had part of "Denver & Rio Grande" written on it.

 I apologise, I am withdrawing my correction. I worked out precisely the reasoning behind the clapboard wall while I was writing about it.

 I am going back to the theory that the depot was built against the Kitchen extension, "Eating House at the time?" And had to be moved because of the roof alterations.
 Thats how things fall into place whilst still learning how to learn.

Dont be confused. My discussion on moving the depot along the wall of the hotel is not to be mixed up with when the depot was move away from the hotel. The latter event taking place so the overhanging roof of the Pacific hotel could be built.

Photo was provided to me by Bob Schoppe. I have a bad habit of not contributing photos to their providers.
The depot has been moved away from the hotel in this photo above. That process enabled the placement of the telegraph pole between the two buildings. And the telegraph pole enabled wires to be then fed through the Gilman window architraves, which had become timbers to cover D&RG TOB hole. Get it? The telegraph wires board was not accessible for wiring until the depot was moved.
Shame the picture is to blurred to show the windows and doors on the south side of the depot or the top of the window at the end of the Hotel hall. But the fretwork of the overhanging roof is clear enough to see.

 Onwards, I need to do some modelling...
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, The Depot walls explained

John Droste
In reply to this post by John Droste
Except for a few spots, which I will mention as I go along, I am confident that I have worked out the walls arrangement as the buildings were arranged in Denver.
 Thanks to David Tomkins for supplying me the plans to enable me to do this work in the interest of all DSP&P enthusiasts.

This will take several posts as I want to show you all the details that have finally enabled me to put this together. It has taken me many years to piece together the walls to this point where I am now. I have numbered the wall sections in red and I will address each wall section starting on the North wall.



Wall 1, in the North wall is obviously one of the original D&RG end walls as it has the hole where the TOB arm and bracket slid through.


Wall 2, The older section of wall that I am working on with the theory that it came from the Denver, Colorado Central depot.


Actually, the photo above shows the join in the walls between panels 2 and 3.


This is a photo showing the join in the wall between wall 3 and 4A at the end. I have very carefully done the measurements off the plan and the return of the back of the depot is "half the internal width of the office plus the internal width of the depot itself."
 Wall 3, in Denver was the opposite end wall of that "other" building in Denver. A livery building or stable, judging by the old door entrances.
 Wall section parts 4A and 4B also make up a half end wall section of the D&RG depot. As is wall number 5 that I mentioned in an earlier post. But I want to talk about this room above for a little while.
 When I joined the DSP&P HS I had already done a lot of research on the DSP&P. Not really, but I had on Como because I wanted to model Como having bought an engine house kit.
 Upon joining the Society and a few DSP Yahoo groups at the same time, I got to realise that I was aware of a number of things that the Society and members of the groups were not aware of. That the above room was made into a sleeping quarters at the time that the depot was constructed in Como was one of those things. I had read it, somewhere. I had read that this room was built for the Dispatcher as the Dispatchers residence had not been built yet. And there was another reason, I thought to do with the hotels but it had been a long time since I had read the article, did not know the significance of it at the time. All through internet searching, I had learned what I did.
 Repeated these memories many times over the years in the DSP groups and elsewhere writing to Bob mainly and David. And elsewhere.
 At the time there were many tents in the town and trains were coming and going at all times of the night. Trains had to stop outside the town to cover the headlamp so as not to disturb the tent occupants. This I remembered well because I was bemused that the light would be a problem but the noise made by the engines not so much.
 And there were three electric lamps in the town at that time the writer had said. One in the engine house where the power was generated, one for the person that I now understand to be the Dispatcher to write his orders, and another light to show him the way.
 I now understand that the light to show him the way was to guide him to the small room in the baggage room.
 But I also now understand that I was not wrong when I thought I recollected that it had something to do with the Hotel.
 It would most certainly have been closed for alterations. Just think about this, these things. The wall was being cut through the Gilman Hotel, upstairs and down. Windows removed. The front door to the kitchen blocked off. But also importantly to understand, when the initial DSP Hotel was built, it would not have had that 6 foot wide hallway traversing it. The initial building would have to be altered to allow for the 98.5 foot long hallway to run the length of the entire DSP hotel building. So that is a lot of work to be going on in the building and I could talk about more possible works regarding the kitchen set up, but won't.
 But so, the hotel or hotels were closed. I once thought that that may be my memory and now I know for certain. Because it just makes sense.
 I had the photo album DSP&P Memories and then some. I knew there was something up with the depot but photos of the sleeping quarters were not a part of that CD album. Those photos came to me from somebody who also realised that the history of Como had questions about it. Several people did and assisted me quietly. Such was the situation.
 However openly I was howled down in the groups. Called all sorts of things. Disgraceful behaviour. If I thought I was wrong about what I was doing I would have given up years ago. But I am here to prove my point as  result. It would have to be simple psychology to understand that.
 I am going to rest and continue explaining the walls later.
 Walls 1, 4, 5 and 6 are the original end walls of the D&RG station.
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, The Depot walls explained/ 2

John Droste
Apologies to those that may feel that I got side-tracked. I did.


As you can see, the floor from building that came from Denver was rotten as a chop. More flooring had been laid over the old floor. Excuses were made for the floor, but I understood the truth. Well not at first. The flooring in the baggage room was also multi layered.

Look at the wall on the left, the dividing wall between office and sleeping quarters. Bob Schoppe had mentioned this wall to me in an email. It is only double thickness to the apparent hight that you see in the picture. On the office side, the cladding extends up to the ceiling. Took me a long time to understand what is going on here also. The wall will be the sides of a stock car, or something of that nature.

 I think it is important to appreciate that this wall exactly half the internal width of the depot away from the back wall of the depot. Wall 5, being a half section of wall joins on to wall 4B at exactly the place where this dividing wall is. Like building a house of cards, something had to be in this location to hold everything together. Make no mistake about the importance of that!

 Now at the hight of the "boxcar" wall a timber bead surrounds the room. A false ceiling was supported on this. Before everything was carefully catalogued and stowed away for future reference a photo was taken of inside the room. Probably many, but I have one photo, below.

 One of the first times I left home I moved into a house of this vintage. I stripped the original lining back off the ceiling much as you see in the photo hanging down in tatters. I found out to late that the cloth caught dirt and dust creeping through the joins in the cladding. Was my bedroom as well.

Will close this post with a picture of the walls 5 and 4B. I know that the doorway in 4B was a window formerly. I suspect that the doorframe  came from the section of wall, 7. Will explain later.




Seek out and buy the CD of Ken Smith. It is vast and amazing. All of his CD,s that I have purchased are.
"Photos used by permission  Copyright Ken Smith Photography All Rights Reserved.”
www.steamandmorephotography.com
 Photos of inside sleeping quarters by silent contributor.
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, The Depot walls explained/3-wall #7.

John Droste
I do not see a short way to explain adequately. Not if it is to be properly understood. And then again, I may be completely mistaken in my observations. All I can show you is what I see and what I seem to understand. Your decision is yours. I am still undecided. However, if I don't point this out, with the depot now rebuilt, it is unlikely that it ever would be unfathomed.
 I am a historian of the DSP&P HS. I have lost connection with the Society and can only do my best, on my own.


 You will see that I have drawn wall 7 in two places. It would be interesting to know if the D&RG station was moved from 11th St to near 19th St whole or if it was dismantled, same as it was bringing it to Como. Regardless, combining the building segments of several former structures has created difficulty in understanding the history of each segment. Some parts may be now back to front, like the ceiling of the baggage room. Also, at any stage, before Como it may have been altered. Indeed the whole D&RG station building may have been altered in different ways and at different times.

 I will start by showing where I think wall 7 attached to other parts of the structure before being moved to Como. Where I have drawn it in in red, in the baggage room.

Above, back to the baggage room again and the Gilman hotel architraves that were used to cover up where there is something missing. That ceiling cover strap ends at about the point above where I pointed out the oil room, on the ceiling.

 Photo above shows where the ceiling strap ends just past the corner of the room. As a side note to the issue at hand before I continue. I mentioned earlier that the shelving that was attached to this sidewall evident by the battons that were attached, were for the gravity cell batteries. That shelving was inside an enclosed cabinet as the markings of that cabinet can be seen just beyond the cover strap on the ceiling. I see no reason to extend the cabinet face to the ceiling if they were shelves only. There would have been doors there.
 Onwards.

Looking through the trellis counter is wall 7 today, or so I suspect. A whole lot of things to point out here. Lots. All relevant to this particular wall 7 discussion.
 There was a door entrance in this wall. In the 1883 photo, the vestibule was outside here. I have drawn an arrow spanning the door width and at the top of that, circled the former corners of the door opening.
To the left of the door opening is another panel. The cladding on it matches the patched panel where the door was but not the surrounding walls.
The wall with the ticket window also has a hole in it where the shaft of the TOB was passed through. In this room it is covered over with a piece of tin. The tin is folded and just the edge of that tin can be seen. The bottom of that tin is about level with where the top of the door opening was. If you go back to the green room and look again you will see that the piece of architrave coming down the wall is covering a scribe that extends to the bottom level of the TOB hole also.
 So we have established that there is a correspondence between the wall panel end in hight, between the two rooms.

 The panel to the left of the door opening is actually drawn in on the plan that David Tomkins provided to me. There is a stud that fits to the side of the panel drawn into the plan as well. It may be hard to see. I have drawn in the red mark on the plan to the side of the stud. Not to the ticket wall itself. That measurement of wall 7 then extends from the stud to very north end of the wall. Working from the plan, that same measurement equals the length of the cover strap on the ceiling in the green room or baggage room.
 I am picturing wall 7 in the space of the green room across where the cover straps are but without the infills.
 It becomes a mind boggling issue when you consider the ceiling, (Obviously been altered), and the D&RG window which is in wall 7 facing in the direction that it does.
 However, I have also expressed my doubts about that one shorter window in the back wall of the depot, recall?
The window in wall 7 has small blocks attached at the top, each side of the architrave. My knowledge of these type windows tells me that this window had sash balances so that the window could be opened and that the head of the window frame extended beyond the outside dimension of the architraves. Manufactured this way in order to house the cavity for the sash balances.
 I think possibly, the window was installed into the wall at a later date and that the wall cladding had notches cut out to allow the insertion of the head of the window frame. And the blocks then covering the notch holes. I can not be certain of that because I do not get any assistance, any longer, from people that can help.
 Maybe the small window in the back of the depot was exchanged with this one at the face of the building.

I know I am very close but I am not quit there with this part of the walls identifications.
"Photos used by permission  Copyright Ken Smith Photography All Rights Reserved.”
www.steamandmorephotography.com

 All for now. Much more on the walls to discuss still.
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, The Depot walls explained/ 3

John Droste
In reply to this post by John Droste
I will just finish discussing the wall markings that I had drawn on Davids plan.

I do believe wall 6 to be a half wall from the original D&RG station. If you measure its length it equals half the internal width of the Depot, today. Because it was not realised that the depot was reconstructed from other buildings it was thought that this room was a later addition. Wrong! I have an old email from the President of the DSP&P HS. He mentions in this email that there are signs of previous timber shingle cladding on one of the walls inside the room. If it is wall 6 then we know that the D&RG station was clad in timber shingles. If it is the wall to the south side of wall 6 that intersects the external wall 8 then I am not certain any more. I have no idea of where that piece of wall came from. Photo of wall 6 below.

Without being able to stick my head inside the room for a better look, I suspect that the wall is external originally therefore it would have had a window over the door and that has been partially covered over now, only. Can`t fathom that any further.
 Look at the floor. It is multi layered floor the same as in the office and sleeping quarters.
Looking through the doorway can be seen the wall that intersects with the end of wall 8. Lets have a closer look at that below.

This section of wall has "Oil Room" written on it. You can see the join in the two external sections of wall where the stud from the "Oil Room" walls stops short. Under the seat is a hatch in the floor which extended under the wall. An indication then that the hatch was in the floor before Como.
I believe very strongly that with the gravity cell batteries having been located on the other side of this wall, and the memory of what I had read about the Dispatcher needing a light to find his way to the desk where he wrote out his orders, I believe that this room was where he did that. There is a pile of waste under the hatch and there are plenty of spent battery terminals in the soil beneath as well. An indication to me that the spent battery terminals were just dumped under the floor. The waste pile was not removed for examination and perhaps best that way until professionals can handle the undertaking.
Below is a photo of the corner of the Oil Room where it meets the floor.

Just like under the Freight/baggage room wall, there are two floor joists side by side here. Two sections of floor shipped up as panels from Denver and joined together. One floor joist still has the flooring attached. The second floor joist has had the flooring removed. Bob Schoppe included these photos to me in wider email because these photos are WTF photos and the builder restoring the building had no explanations to what was going on. There is a spent gravity cell terminal laying in the soil. Looks a bit like a hand. Interesting read if you care to google them.

 I am busy at the moment but I have not covered the Switchman's Shanty which will be a big post. I think I have stated already that those walls came from rolling stock, the windows from the Gilman Hotel and the roof 'panels' and floor from That building in Wynkoop Street. Will explain with full detail later.

I think there is one very important lesson in all of this. Just how tough times were in those days for perhaps all railroads but John Evans as well. Nothing could be wasted thoughtlessly.
 The primary objective of Mr Evans was not to build a railroad. It was to make Denver the Capital of Colorado. This he helped achieve, under great financial hardship but he achieved his goal and sold the railroad. That hardship is evident, or was evident in this building. That to me, is the real story. And "Pacific" in DSP&P, that was to capture the minds that decided to make Denver the Capital. Could be wrong but that's my take on things. Could be easy to take for granted the true and genuine significance of this world renowned railroad when failing to recognise the real hardships involved in making it happen.

"Photos used by permission  Copyright Ken Smith Photography All Rights Reserved.
http://www.steamandmorephotography.com/
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Re: Denver to Como 1881, The Depot walls explained/ 3

Chris Walker
John,

Denver as the capital of the Colorado Territory predated the railroads, wresting the title from Golden in 1867, the State came about in 1876. DSP&P was incorporated in Oct. 1872.
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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