Darel's New Header Photo

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Darel's New Header Photo

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
Darel just added a new header photo for the "Discussion Forum" and it is a beauty!

Judging from the standard gauge switch engine ahead of the 27 foot UP built boxcar, and the standard gauge passenger cars in the background, I'd say this looks to be Denver, circa 1901-1906.

The real find in the photo, IMHO, is the camera-shy 27 foot coal car, one of the 100 cars built by the UP in 1882 for the new South Park subsidiary.  These cars, originally numbered in the 300 series, were distinctive with the deep 12 inch tapered side sills and the rather low 24 inch sides made of boards of different dimensions: 2x8 on top, 2x6 in the middle, 2x10 at bottom against the floor.

This is how they originally looked:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/9869/rv/singleitem/rec/9



Ron Rundnick has 1/4 inch scale plans of this car in his DSP&P Modeling Guide, page 19.

I've never seen one of these cars in "The Colorado Road" lettering scheme. Now I can finish one of the Cimarron Works resin kits for this car and correctly letter it.

BTW Darel, this image looks cropped--any chance you can post the full image and any link here?
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Paul R.
Also what is the loco on the front- is this dual gauge track. Paul R.
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Jim Courtney
The locomotive at the head of the narrow gauge cars is C&S 221.

In 1906, the C&S took delivery of its first five new 0-6-0 standard gauge switchers, numbers 220-224. According to Hol Wagner, they were built by Cooke and were near identical to the Harriman Standard 0-6-0 switchers being built for the Union Pacific, suggesting that the now independent C&S was still being influenced by U.P. practices. The switchers were classed A-3E the following year.

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/43152/rv/singleitem/rec/2


Otto Perry photographed sister 220 in Denver, circa 1919.


So, yes, Darel's header photo is of dual gauge track, no earlier than 1906. I'm surprised -- I thought that the 27 foot coal cars had been displaced by the St Charles and 1902 ASF coal cars by this time, and had all been removed from revenue service.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Darel Leedy
Administrator
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Hi Jim,
Thanks for your added observations. What makes you think the photo is cropped? 😜
Well, my mega computer is at work and I'm left with my iPad for the weekend. So I can only post a link to the original photo: http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/20918/rv/singleitem/rec/24
It's an amazing look back at the past. From the equipment to the people and fashion of the day. Seems they departed the passenger train  and crossed over just in time to avoid the local freight passing by on one of the platform tracks.

If only it were in color 😕

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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
That's a humdinger of a photo!

Thanks for the link, can't believe this lives in DPL and was never noticed before now.

And as I suspected there is even more neat stuff in the photo:




Not just one, but two 27 foot coal cars of ore, both former 300 series UP-built cars. C&S 4725 has had its sides and ends rebuilt with two 2x12 boards per side, but still has the bolt placement on the stakes for the odd original 3 board sides. These guys just beg to be modeled!

The diamond stacked CB&Q switcher at the right frame is pretty neat, too.

But the coolest thing about this photo is to put it in full browser mode, 60-70% enlargement, then move back and forth at the bottom frame -- you feel like your standing in the middle of the crowd, as it swarms around you!
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Darel Leedy
Administrator
Exactly
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Keith Hayes
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Well! That is just freaking spectacular.
Keith Hayes
Leadville in Sn3
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Chris Walker
Why is there a supposition that the loaded cars have to contain ore?  http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Ore-color-of-and-how-shipped-tp8593p8855.html

There seems to be a uniformity to the sizing of the rock, not appearing to contain fines as Ore should, not loaded in piles lessening to the centre of the car but spread evenly to capacity... suggesting to me to be rock for either rip-rap, roading or limestone for fluxing at a Smelter.

As for getting lost in the view of the crowd, Darel   I sure liked running the Passenger down into the Capital on a Summer's day.  Scenery deluxe!
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Mike Trent
Administrator
I seem to remember that trackage at Union Station was actually a seperate entity altogether, something like the Denver Union Terminal RR. I don't know when this was established or when it ended, but while it was active, this sort of operation running a a cut of freight cars through a crowd of arriving passengers was abolished, and with obviously good reason. Very cool picture, but really, how stupid can you get? Makes you wonder if this was taken to promote the idea of eliminating the practice, which later it was.
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Jim Courtney
Can any of you Denverites identify the industry with all of the tall brick chimneys, ahead of the C&S switch engine?

Is is a smelter, power plant maybe?
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Mike Trent
Administrator
Jim, I guess the term "old" is relative,  right?

I'd say that the general area of where all the stacks are is very close if not right at where Coors Field is today.

There are photos I have seen, perhaps Chris might have some saved, that show a mogul, not the same one, sitting by itself with what looks to be a natural gas holding tank  in the near background. It's the type of old tank that has a round steel skeletal structure around a round solid tank that would raise and lower within the steel framework. In some photos it is higher or lower in some pics than in others.

I had never really thought about where that may have been until now, but it could be that the engines may have been spotted over there at the throat of what would be the trackage of Union Station. I seem to remember my Dad telling me that all trains and locomotives entering Union Station trackage had to stop, and await a DUTRR engineer to enter the terminal trackage. That was part of the Union Contract which regulated authority whenever another railroad right of way was entered in such cases.

I vaguely remember Hol Wagner addressing this in "The Colorado Road", and that DUTRR trackage may appear in his Denver map.

So, after all that, I'd about bet your guess is spot on, Jim, that probably was the location of the Power plant in those days.

The only stack near the North end of the Station in later days that I recall was the Beatrice Dairy. Or, was that just a water tank on the roof?

It's also possible those stacks, or maybe a couple of them, survived for decades, but the view from the platforms in that direction were much different in "them days". I could look through my Dad's albums for a similar view if I can find time.
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Robert McFarland
The photo you are referring to sounds like the classic photo of C&S #8.
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

John Greenly
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
Wonderful photo, thanks Darel!

Here's the photographer, Harry Rhoads:



He was a newspaper photographer from 1900-1969.  Supposedly always carried a ladder in his car to get an elevated view, as we see!

Could indeed be that he was documenting the dangerous situation at the terminal for a newspaper article.

Cheers,
John
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Mike Trent
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
In fact, the structure I was describing is right there, dead center, in the full picture right above the woman with the white blouse. All you can see are tall steel columns arranged in a circle, with a narrow round fence like arrangement connecting the posts at the top. I've never seen a photo of this without evidence of the tank that would raise and lower within the columns before now. Perhaps someone can capture it with clarity and post it. I can't do that with my phone.

The obviously C&S trackage leading through the North Yard seems to curve to the left (West) of the Gas tank, which would indicate that the photos of moguls sitting beside it had just arrived in Denver with Train No 71 from Leadville.

Thanks, John, for that great pic of Harry Rhoades.

Without doubt, Darel knew posting that picture would ignite an interesting discussion, and it has.
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Bill Uffelman
That is definitely a gas works with the storage tank at it's lowest/empty state. "Coal gas" generated by heating coal in an oven  and capturing the combustible product for use in heating, cooling and gas lights.

Bill Uffelman 


On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Mike Trent [via C&Sng Discussion Forum]
In fact, the structure I was describing is right there, dead center, in the full picture right above the woman with the white blouse. All you can see are tall steel columns arranged in a circle, with a narrow round fence like arrangement connecting the posts at the top. I've never seen a photo of this without evidence of the tank that would raise and lower within the columns before now. Perhaps someone can capture it with clarity and post it. I can't do that with my phone.


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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
Okay, for comparisons, let's get the full image of Darel's photo up:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/20918/rv/singleitem/rec/24



The gas plant's storage tank seems to be behind the diamond stack of the "Q" switcher, right?


The two Otto Perry views that I recall are of number 5, in 1917:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42093/rv/singleitem/rec/30



One chimney in the background and a lot of new steel smokestacks, perhaps replacing many of the chimneys in Darel's view.


The view of number 7, dates from 1918:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/42171/rec/14



The circular gas storage tank, or at least it's supporting columns, are in the right background.


Still not sure where these two locomotives are spotted, relative to Darel's view above.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Keith Hayes
Thanks for posting the full image, Jim.

I believe that the camera is at the north end of DUT and pointed just east of north in the morning. That would place those chimneys at about the current location of 20th and Chestnut. (Stand at Union Station and look towards the current BNSF shops).

The chimneys look to me to be related to brick manufacturing. But I am just guessing. Who has a Sanborn map of this area handy.

I posit that the photo of 5 is in a different location, or the stacks  are to the NW of DUT where the TOFC ramp used to be.

That tower structure behind the 7 spot does look to match the structure in the header photo,  but the wood clerestory to the left always led me to believe it was on the south side of Cherry Creek nearer the 7th Street shops.

Some Sanborn maps of the era of the images will answer more of our questions.
Keith Hayes
Leadville in Sn3
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
Yup, Keith, we need a good period map!

FASHION NOTE:

My eye kept drifting from the gas works down to the attractive young woman in the white blouse. I began to wonder if she had lost her right arm in an accident and had been fitted with a prosthesis, like Dr Strangelove. (My great aunt, Lulu, lost both her arms in a cotton gin accident as a child, became a successful artist by painting with her feet).

Then I canvased the other women in the photo and found that most all were wearing elbow length gloves, possibly of leather. Must have helped to keep warm in winter, but must have been uncomfortably hot during the summer.

And I must admit, some of the young women in Darel's photo are pretty "hot".
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

Chris Walker
I was working on it Jim..... but this is 1887 map, maybe too early.





https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4314dm.g009851887/?st=gallery
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
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Re: Darel's New Header Photo

John Greenly
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Re: FASHION NOTE:

The hats are what amaze me, an astounding variety on both men and women.  

Those women had to be tough and long-suffering-- I think they were roasting, not hot!  Never mind the gloves, how about those many layers of incredibly heavy clothes, the shoes with about 72 eyelets to lace up, the corsets applying fierce compression to produce the wasp-waisted look…  and then to top it all off, they had to balance those ridiculous hats.  Getting run over by the freight train would just be icing on the cake!

Cheers,
John
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