C&S structure colors

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C&S structure colors

Norm Acker
Hi group,
With the demise of Floquil (I sure do miss it...), I am looking for suggestions on the C&S late era green and red structure colors. After some research a couple of years ago I painted a small coal shed that I built for my version of Waterton using Scalecoat One Boxcar Red #2, and to my eyes it looks okay. I've searched on Pullman Green here on the forum and didn't find much regarding currently available paint choices. As I am about to embark on my Waterton depot model, I was wondering if you wildly knowledgeable and resourceful folks would care to share any ideas on today's offerings of paint choices for the dark green trim color, and possibly my choice of the red body color as well. Thanks!
   
Norm in Littleton, CO
 - on the C&S Silica Branch
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Re: C&S structure colors

Norm Acker
I should add that my airbrushing experience has been limited to enamels, but I am open to suggestions there as well...
Norm in Littleton, CO
 - on the C&S Silica Branch
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Re: C&S structure colors

GUMPY
     Look @ Humbrol #86/new color name Matt Light Olive /enamal/flat
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C&S Red

Mike Trent
Administrator
In reply to this post by Norm Acker
Hi Norm,

Way back when the last of the dinosaurs were still roaming in the mid 80's, I followed Harry Brunk's suggestion of mixing C&S Red using, if I recall correctly with my own dinosaur brain, two parts Floquil Boxcar Red, and one part Floquil Caboose Red. The result was real nice, and looked excellent on both rolling stock and structures. It could be altered and/or weathered in a number of ways and always looked great. To make sure I got the mix right, I actually used three bottles of paint and I had pretty much a lifetime supply, which I stored in a Gerbers bottle, which were plentiful for me at the time as my kids were all little.

When Floquil altered their Caboose Red sometimes in the 90's, that formula was no longer possible, then they dinked around with the color of Boxcar Red, which rendered that too, unusable. In about 2010, it seemed like the original colors had been restored, but they went out of business before I got back into modeling C&S again.

About three months ago, I was amazed to find a real nice color that is almost a perfect match for Harry's "C&S Red", right out of the bottle, and should be available everywhere. If I can get it in Huntsville Alabama, you should be able to find it wherever you are. Except maybe Ireland. Jeff?

Look for Tamya color #TS-33, "Dull Red". It is an acrylic paint, available in both spray and bottle. I painted a Grandt Line Steel Framed Gon with it, and it looks just like cars I painted back in the 80's.

When Todd Hackett built my Dickey Depot, he used the original "C&S Red" as it's color, with Floquil Pullman Green windows and doors. Rob Smith suggested using Testors Model Master "Dark Green" to paint my passenger equipment, and that looks very compatible to the color on the Dickey Depot windows today.

I built a Model Masterpieces Section House which I painted in Floquil Boxcar Red, but the richer red color of Brunk's "C&S Red" looks much better. C&S Red should be more red than brown.

Flanger #015 will be painted using Dull Red, as will be other future rolling stock and structures that need the look of what Harry Brunk recommended years ago.

The first time I used Tamya paint on a project was for my #7, representing the old UP "Mineral Red", at the suggestion of David Christian Fletcher. That color is "Linoleum Deck Brown", which is by contrast a much more brown color than red, but perfect for the Old No.7, and David's Bogies.

Hope this helps. But as always, this sort of thing is a matter of whatever looks right to your eye.

Mike  
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Re: C&S Red

Don Pacetti
IMHO, the "correct" color for railroad structures and rolling stock is somewhat of a gray (pun intended =D). No matter what color a structure is originally painted, that color invariably weathers and fades at varying rates, depending on location, usage, wear-and-tear, etc. After looking at the climate in the South Park, and studying quite a few photos of the C&S prototype, I am fairly certain that most of their structures were not well maintained and had a pretty run-down at the heals look. That look is one of the reasons I chose this prototype.

That said, I figure out what the original color was, what the structure was used for, prevailing weather and orientation to prevailing winds, and then vary the shade, fading  and weathering, accordingly. Recommendations on colors, given above sound great to me as starting point; however, I would avoid making all structures a uniform color / shade.
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Re: C&S Red

Robert McFarland
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
What color would be appropriate for 1870/1880s DSP&P freight cars?Flat car decks or box car innards?Trucks and under frame?
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Re: C&S Red

GUMPY
         Might want to cheek microscale/Floquil color chart shows substitute paint colors
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Re: C&S Red

Jeff Young
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
Oddly, I can only get Tamiya Dull Red in a spray, but it does look like a nice match.

So far I’ve only needed to touch up small parts (coal car straps, grab irons, etc.), for which Humbrol #70 (Brick Red) is close enough.  I used that on my water tank too.

When I get to complete cars, I was going to try mixing Vallejo 71.080 Rust and 71.003 Scarlet Red (2:1, as with Floquil Boxcar Red and Caboose Red), but the Tamiya Dull Red spray might be an easier option.

Cheers,
Jeff.



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Re: C&S Red

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
Thanks to all for the paint suggestions.  Now that we live in a post-Floquil world, this gives me some new ideas to try.  Looks like a trip to the local hobby shop is in order.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: C&S Red

Jeff Young
While we’re on the subject, here’s a Polly Scale to Vallejo Model Air conversion for some common rail colours:
29001 Rail Brown			71.247 Rail Brown
29002 Grimy Black		71.222 Grimy Black 
29003 Railroad Tie Brown		71.043 Olive Drab
29004 Reefer White		71.001 White
29005 Rust			71.037 Mud Brown
29006 Clear Flat Finish		70.520 Matt Varnish
29007 Aged Concrete		71.230 Aged Concrete
29008 Engine Black		71.057 Black
29009 Roof Brown			71.038 Camouflage Medium Brown
29010 Roof Red			71.036 Mahagony
29011 Concrete			71.215 Concrete
29012 Steam Power Black		71.251 NATO Black
29013 Undercoat Light Gray	71.050 Light Grey
29014 Clear Gloss Finish		70.510 Gloss Varnish
29015 Boxcar Red 		71.080 Rust
29016 Aged White 		71.132 Aged White
29017 Dark Green 		71.016 US Dark Green
29018 Clear Satin Finish 	70.522 Satin Varnish
29019 Caboose Red 		71.003 Scarlet Red
29020 Signal Red 		71.085 Ferrari Red
29021 Signal Green 		71.014 Gunship Green
29022 Tarnished Black 		71.054 Dark Grey Blue
29023 Earth 			71.122 Desert Tan 686
29024 Reefer Gray 		71.047 US Grey
29025 Dirt 			71.228 Dirt
29026 Flat Aluminum 		71.062 Aluminium
29027 Depot Buff 		71.107 US Interior Yellow
29028 Reefer Yellow 		71.078 Gold Yellow
A couple of those form the basis for my proposed Vallejo C&S Red recipe (2:1 Rust : Scarlet Red). A presumption is made that the Polly Scale named colours are the same as the Floquil equivalents; anyone know if that is in fact true?
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Re: C&S Red

Mike Trent
Administrator
In reply to this post by Jeff Young
Jeff, oddly enough, I too can only get Tamiya Dull Red in spray. I went in the local shop today and sure enough, no bottled Dull Red. No matter, I often use the caps in which to spray color and then brush from the cap. I also use Rustolium "Rusty Metal Primer" for red oxide. It's a brownish color, but dead flat. I also use the Rustolium Camoflauge color series for a variety of things. They all have a dead flat finish, and are available in black, brown, dark green, and khaki. The khaki color is very similar to Floquil Foundation, and can be used as a basic wood color for plastic. Camoflauge is extremely popular here in the deep South. Probably available wherever redneck Americans, like me, can be found. Which is probably everywhere there is a Home Depot.

One last tip, Rustoleum Dark Gray Primer is almost a dead match for Grimy Black Floquil. The Camoflauge Black color is identical to Engine Black.
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Re: C&S Red

Keith Hayes
In reply to this post by Jeff Young
Jeff, I am becoming a fan of Vallejo paints. The 'Air' line paints spray nicely, cover well and do not require thinning. But, they are coming from the military and gaming world and as you can see from the color names do not relate to railroad colors. Thanks for the conversion chart. Also, I think the folks at MicroMark have imported some custom mixes, or rebranded the colors with railroad names.

Mike, thanks for your notes on Floquil history: I also experience similar formula changes with Prismacolor pencils. It is SO frustrating!

I wish Caboose would start to carry the Vallejo colors: I have to get mine from Colpar Hobbies in Lakewood, and also ordered a set from Amazon. I inadvertently ordered colors other than the 'Air' line, thinking 'Air' meant airplane rather than airbrush. I am not sure if there is a difference, as the paint all seems to go on the same.

As others have pointed out, either adding some white or grey to the mix will add some subtle variety to your freight car fleet. Alternately, you can provide an overspray of white and dust to achieve the same results over a common base coat.
Keith Hayes
Leadville in Sn3
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Re: C&S Red

ComoDepot
We did a full paint report for the Depot and have the modern commercial equivalents, not in model form but might be an easy translate.
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Re: C&S Red

Jim Courtney
Any chance that you could post the "Paint Report" for the Como Depot "grey and green scheme" on this forum??
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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Re: C&S Red

John Schapekahm
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
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Re: C&S Red

Ken Martin
If they followed the CB&Q standards as I am sure they did the colors are Indian Red and Bronze Green.
As for modeling there is no real agreement on that especially with Floquil gone.

Ken Martin
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Re: C&S Red

ComoDepot
Sorry been missing, my hard copy is in the Depot but I have a pdf somewhere...

The report itself is a big document, amazing how many layers exist in a thin chip. Quickest option would be to grab the hard copy and do a quick extract.

There is a small building yet to be finished sort of behind the Depot/Hotel. Intent is to finish that in the later scheme so it is both not a pastiche and it can be used as an example.

On the subject of paint a couple of other things. An old time painter referred to modern paint as goop, without lead it does not have the staying power of the old paints. Dark colours suffer at altitude, the UV kills them. Also the weather, the wind has an interesting effect. The black paint on the cross bucks lasted better in the winds, the white painted areas was blasted away so over many winters we ended up with a a 3D effect with the lettering standing proud.
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Re: C&S Red

ComoDepot
Original Scheme

Benjamin Moore 2141-50 Horizon Gray
Benjamin Moore Colonial Williamsburg CW 505 Windsor Green

Burlington

Benjamin Moore RXT RM Cottage Red
Benjamin Moore EXT RM Black Forest Green

I have the CIE values but these are the closest commercial equivalents.

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Re: C&S Red

Robert McFarland
Maybe Benjamin Moore can start making hobby paints.
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Re: C&S Red

ComoDepot
The old adage that you can tell the Men from the Boys by the size of their Toys comes to mind.
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