C&S Intertwined Logo

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C&S Intertwined Logo

Fred H.
I was wondering if anyone knows of a commercial company that has done a high quality (preferably in "vector" format) version of the intertwined C&S logo? I'd love to have my large scale decal maker do some of those for me for my upcoming 1:24 B-4-B bashes and I can't seem to locate a source. Any help ya'll could provide would be most appreciated.
Fred H. Hutchison
Black Hawk in 1:24
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Re: C&S Intertwined Logo

Jim Courtney
The Leadville Shops offers an O scale C&S locomotive set with the "columbine" emblem:

In silver http://www.theleadvilleshops.com/product-page/cwd0-117-1905-c-s-loco-silver

In white http://www.theleadvilleshops.com/product-page/cwd0-118-1905-c-s-loco-white

Contacting either Bob Stears or Doug Junda might help. They may even be able to have them printed in large scale, as they have acquired Rail Graphics as part of their ever growing narrow gauge manufacturing empire.

I'd like to have some of the silver sets printed in S scale, for my 1st decade locomotive roster.

Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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RE: C&S Intertwined Logo

Robert Stears

We can print water slide decals for you. What scale? White or Silver? Any specific locomotive numbers?

 

Thanks,

Bob Stears

 

From: Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 1:23 PM
To: Robert Stears <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: C&S Intertwined Logo

 

The Leadville Shops offers an O scale C&S locomotive set with the "columbine" emblem:

In silver http://www.theleadvilleshops.com/product-page/cwd0-117-1905-c-s-loco-silver

In white http://www.theleadvilleshops.com/product-page/cwd0-118-1905-c-s-loco-white

Contacting either Bob Stears or Doug Junda might help. They may even be able to have them printed in large scale, as they have acquired Rail Graphics as part of their ever growing narrow gauge manufacturing empire.

I'd like to have some of the silver sets printed in S scale, for my 1st decade locomotive roster.

Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA

 


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RE: C&S Intertwined Logo

Jim Courtney
Well Bob, if you're up for requests, I need 3 sets of the C&S locomotive decals in silver printed in S scale: http://www.theleadvilleshops.com/product-page/cwd0-117-1905-c-s-loco-silver

And my Overland Sn3 passenger cars need lettering as well, I'd buy 10 sets of your C&S passenger car decals, also in S scale: http://www.theleadvilleshops.com/product-page/cwdo-121-c-s-narrow-gauge-passenger-set

Perhaps my first order can be the start of a stock items in S scale.

Let me know who to pay and how much!!
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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RE: C&S Intertwined Logo

Fred H.
In reply to this post by Robert Stears
Thanks, to all for responding. Bob, I’m modeling in 1:24. I’d like numbers 43, 47, and 51. Silver color.

Brgds,

Fred H.
Fred H. Hutchison
Black Hawk in 1:24
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RE: C&S Intertwined Logo

Rick Steele
Fred,

The intertwined or "Columbine" logo was done in gold, not aluminum. I discussed this with Hol Wagner and he told me that the color scheme published in "The Colorado Road" was based on observation of Black and White photos and not on C&S documentation. When I found the gold lettering on 71 when I repainted it in 1970, we both agreed that it was the right age for the Columbine emblem.

A gold paint for freight, Gold leaf for Passenger. NOT white or aluminum for the Columbine. Aluminum or Silver came after the intertwined era when "Colorado and Southern" was spelled out along the tender side and the large numbers appeared on the cab sides.

Not sorry to bust your bubble.

Rick
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RE: C&S Intertwined Logo

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
Now this is really fascinating, Rick.

So you're saying that number 71, when taken down to its primeval C&S layers of paint, was lettered with gold during the "columbine" era of 1902-1906? I've often wondered about this photo:


Dr H.L. Curtis photo, Pitkin, c.1903


Derrell Poole thought the locomotive was lettered in aluminum, but the lettering on cab, numbers on sand dome and the big numerals on the tender, with C&S initials on the tender collar all seemed rather dull for that, even if they were just dirty from trips through Alpine Tunnel. Did you find evidence of the tender numerals in gold as well?

And you're saying that in this classic photo of C&S number 8, at about the same time, was lettered in "gold leaf":


H.H. Buckwalter photo, Denver. State Historical Society of Colorado

The lettering all appears shinier than that on number 71. I could see how someone might interpreting this as white.

I've always taken Hol Wagners paint / lettering table in the back of his book as based on C&S documents, not just his opinion.
Evidently everyone else did, Robert Sloan perpetuating this idea of white lettering between 1898 and 1906 in his published articles and lettering guide.

Amazing . . . all the decal manufacturers since the 1970's (Sloan, CDS, Microscale, etc) have always printed early C&S lettering sets in white.

In almost all available photos of C&S locomotives from 1898 to 1906, the lettering and the big numerals on the tenders has always seemed dull to me . . . if the lettering was really white, then the locomotives must have been perpetually grimy. Does this look like white lettering?:




In the last few years, a lot of color renderings of drawings of late 1890's UP locomotives indicate a dark yellow lettering, like the lettering of DL&G 191 at the Museum today. Perhaps this was also considered gold.

It would make sense that the Denver shop forces in 1898 would re-letter all the DL&G locomotives to the new C&S, using what ever paint that was on hand--if the UP was using a dark yellow or gold paint, that would likely be used for the job. UP shop guys did the repainting, it would be several years until the C&S had its own 7th Street Shops.

Mike posted some photos of his C&S number 7 of this era. I interpreted his lettering to be dark UP yellow -- but was it gold?
How about a broadside photo of your number 7, and tell us how you lettered it . . .
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
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RE: C&S Intertwined Logo

Mike Trent
Administrator
Jim, my #7 has gold lettering, as I'm sure this photo of #22 has. Just prior to the formation of the C&S in 1899, UP standard was for gold lettering which was followed on both the DL&G and UPD&G as photos indicate.

The first few Locomotives turned out by the shops in Como undoubtedly used materials on hand for painting and lettering, which were all UP, and before any "standard" scheme was specified by the C&S. This was encouraged by Todd Hackett, David Christian Fletcher, and Hol Wagner.

#22 had striped driver tires, #7 had a more silvered smokebox door, but both were otherwise UP standard. In #7's case, right down to Mineral Red in all the right places. No one can convince me otherwise. And I went into that project as a non-believer in such foolishness.    
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RE: C&S Intertwined Logo

SteveG
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
What's the latest confirmed date anyone can cite for the use of the columbine logo?  The Narrow Gauge Pictorial Vol VI, page 53 cites a photo dated to 1906 of number 10 at Halfway Tank as the latest example, but there are two pictures of number 9, on pages 46 and 47, that show her with and without the intertwined logo, and they are both attributed to be circa 1910.
Would love to have some excuse for at least one instance of that lettering style in my version of Como in mid-1910, but I think that's a stretch.

Steve Guty
Redmond, WA
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RE: C&S Intertwined Logo

Rick Steele
Steve,

I would think that the Columbine logo was dropped around the time that the C&S was taken over by the CB&Q. That seems to be the time that the "Colorado and Southern" appears on the tenders and the large numbers appear on the cab sides. This is also around the time that the block C&S is dropped for the round logo so familiar to all of us C&S fans.

If you stop and look at the CB&Q equipment of the time and substitute the round logo for the CB&Q box, the lettering is almost exactly the same.

If you are modeling 1910, I would bet you dollars to doughnuts that there were still plenty of locomotives lettered in the Columbine Logo (aka Intertwined) at that time. You have to remember that the repainting came along when the locomotives were out of service for major repairs or shopped with enough time to paint them. Like today, new lettering styles may be preferred, but there are plenty of old ones still running around.

Rick