Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
18 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

Chris Walker


The 1880-1884 original line of the D&RG and the DSP&P between Buena Vista and Nathrop is under the current Hwy 285, Mac Poor and E.J.Haley in DSP&P show the new, arrow straight re-alignment of the D&RG and the intersecting DSP&P line as being 1884-1908.  The twin Howe truss Bridges of the DSP&P date from 1883.

This next photo of the D&RG steel truss under construction is the only picture I've seen showing the DSP&P Truss bridge to date.

And in that vein is a bit of an enigma.  The massive abutments are of poured Concrete, something I associate from the 1920's not the 1904 period and indeed in 1924- the D&RG did reduce curvature from Salida to Leadville.  

There is no actual date of the D&RG re-allignment Nathrop to Buena Vista in any of the books* I have checked.  Surely if this was at the end of the C&S in 1924 just how did the D&RG(W) operate the Mainline during the time period this new Bridge was under construction?  At that time the Tennessee Pass line was the only route.  As the RGW Derrick figures in this, given the Grande's tangled corporate history, does 1904 fit better?

Was perhaps the D&RG original line(under Hwy) retained until the reconstruction in 1924?  Certainly I doubt E.J.Haley would be remiss in this or were the D&RG lines shown for illustrative purposes a side-show?

There is no evidence of earlier constructed Cut Stone Abutments alongside in the Map and a companion view taken at the same time as the CHS.X7810 view.  Further North above B.V. there is that same evidence at another Bridge site on the D&RG(W) see DPL OP-10583 http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/53186/rec/13

Something to ponder!  I doubt this can be answered though.


CHS.X7810 http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/13157/rv/singleitem


OP-6417  http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/44064/rv/singleitem

*
Rio Grande to the Pacific.
Tracking Ghost Rails In Colorado
Colorado Railroads
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

John Greenly
Very interesting to see the DSP&P bridge, but I also have to say that's a really beautiful Pratt deck truss being constructed in the foreground of that photo,

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/13157/rv/singleitem

many thanks for posting it!  Very interesting to see it at that point in the assembly sequence. I see some things I wish I could have used in assembling my model, for instance taking advantage of the turnbuckles in the stabilizer rods to allow installing them in two separate pieces.  If I expand the image by the right amount on my screen the workers become about HO size, that's exactly the bridge crew I need to work on my model, they clearly know what they're doing....  

John
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

Jimmy Blouch
In reply to this post by Chris Walker
A portion of D&RG RR map dated April 1885 for Nathrop.

D&RG  RR did a line change during 1904, however, my map for that is not at hand.

Jimmy

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

Jim Courtney
So this map must be after the Joint Operating Agreement was voided.

It suggests the South Park (under UP ownership) built its own line from Buena Vista to Nathrop, on the west side of the Arkansas, no longer using D&RG track. The two lines appear to cross at the upper top right . . . right?
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

Chris Walker
This post was updated on .
I would be thinking same Jim as the DSP&P wooden Truss was built in 1883: this nagging doubt I have as to the concrete Abutment construction of the new D&RG Steel Truss has me thinking that the Nathrop Diamond on the North side of the Arkansas would not have existed in that location until the D&RG rebuilt their line in either 1904-ish or 1924-ish, but on the South bank closer to Nathrop, possibly the intersection of Hwy 285 and Trail Road on Google maps.

An aside: once on a trip around those parts I was speaking with a gentleman who used the pronunciation of "Are-Kansas" River not like the State of "Ah-Can-Sore".  
What say ye Northern Dwellers?

EDIT: I was given to the understanding that the locals refered to the river being pronounced it like that, not the same way as the State.
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

Jim Courtney
Can't speak for everyone in the Northern hemisphere, but we Texans pronounce it "Ark-en-saw".
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

Robert McFarland
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
The line coming in from the top left is the new DSP&P alignment from coming from the wooden truss bridge.There are two spurs to the local quarry which appear to only be connected to the D&RG.There would be no reason for the  DSP&P to build an independent line west of the river..Remember that it was the DSP&P that built the track  on the D&RG grade from BV to Nathrop prior to the D&RG reaching Nathrop.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

Robert McFarland
In reply to this post by Chris Walker
At one point in time it was called Rio Nepestle.Figuring there is a large portion of it in Kansas us Kansans are proud to call it Ar-kansas.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

ComoDepot
Como Roundhouse Turntable rebuild used Concrete in 1908/10.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Chris Walker
John Schapekahm in the "Diamond in the Rough" thread, posted this C&S map of the Buena Vista - Nathrop area:





The "Note" is fascinating, as is an enlargement of the Buena Vista area on the right:





Thanks to John, I've learned a few new things here:

1. The lower Trout Creek flood of August 1908 not only washed out the C&S track exiting Box canon, but apparently washed out most of the trackage at Schwanders as well. Presumably the coal trestle and chutes disappeared at that time.  The Schwanders water tank, to the west (compass south) of the station tracks, seems to have survived until the 1920s (I've read that Sam Speas bought the tank for $25.00, demolished it with the help of a C&S locomotive and cables, and salvaged all the redwood for his house).

2. A new connection, using the original roadbed alignment, was constructed from the tail track of the Macune wye to Schwanders, to replaced the lost trackage in Box Canyon..

3. The C&S connection to the D&RG dual gauge (to allow C&S trains to access Leadville when the Trout Creek line was washed out), was actually two connections, forming a "wye".  I'd wondered how the C&S locomotives were turned at Buena Vista, thinking that surely they didn't run all the way back to Macune to turn.  Do you think that when C&S locomotives turned at Buena Vista, that they actually used the D&RG 3-rail main as one leg of the wye?

Jim
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

Rick Steele
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Yes Jim,

The South Park built its own line into Buena Vista after the Joint Operating Agreement was abrogated.

According to the B&B Information that I have, the Water Tank in Buena Vista was owned by the DSP&P but sold to the D&RG in 1886.

The Section House was moved to Schwanders in 1893

The Freight House was Either dismantled of burned in 1913

The Depot looks to be built in 1891 along With the Coal House. These would make these two structures of UP construction and not from the C&S. The C&S wasn't formed until 1898.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

Jimmy Blouch
In reply to this post by Jimmy Blouch
The 1885 map I posted shows the original location for both the D&RG RR and DSP&P.

I located my D&RG RR 1904 map for line change at Nathrop.

It is way too large to scan so I tried a couple of photos, which didn't turn out all that great.

Relocation work was done during 1903 and opened for business December 4, 1903.

This map shows both the original line and the relocated line of 1903.
The relocation starts out east of the depot area and proceeds west in a straight line.
The new bridge 233A has notation of being 150' plate deck girder with concrete abutments.

Jimmy


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

Chris Walker
Thank You Jimmy,
E.J. Haley drew the maps for Mac Poor's DSP&P and has three maps in the Pocket at back showing the various trackage arrangements, these maps somewhat abridged, were published in Tom Klinger's Gunnison Divison Memories.

If I had only perused the Haley "all time trackage" map a little closer I would have seen the "abnd 1904" notation(missing in Gunnison Memories) along what is now Hwy 285.  An eye-opener to know that they were using Concrete for such huge abutments that early.  I wonder just how many pours went into each?  


CHS.X7811 http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/13158/rv/singleitem

CHS.X7810 http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/13157/rv/singleitem

No-one has commented however on the beauty of the stonework of the DSP&P structure.


note the Corbel (projection) stones, was it the intention of the designer to support a ponytruss at the end instead of the beam/stringer arrangement shown?

OP-6417 http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/44064/rv/singleitem
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
So there were actually two diamonds at Nathrop, where the C&S crossed the D&RG, but not necessarily at the same time?

In the first photo of the poured concrete abutments, it looks like they even used rebar in 1904.

Did you notice the flat car under the derrick is a steel framed car? The Northern Pacific had a similar series of flat cars built by the Pressed Steel Co. about 1903.

Jim
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

John Greenly
In reply to this post by Chris Walker
Chris, The DSP&P stonework is indeed quite wonderful, with the tapered buttress up the middle and the corbels, a very elegant design. Do I remember reading that imported European stonemasons did a lot of work on the DSP&P? This looks like cathedral architecture. It's intriguing to speculate why it was built this way and then apparently never used. Or maybe it was, and this simple beam span was a replacement? Thanks for posting these! John
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

ComoDepot
The story in Como is that there were Italian Stonemasons up here, not sure of the origin however. I know there were Italian Coal Miners who were booted out in late 1879, wondered if there was a connection/ confusion.

I believe works such as Buildings. Bridges etc were let to Construction companies, and they would have put together a labour gang to undertake the work.

As is today seems reasonable that many of these gangs were specific to one country/language. At the lower Como/King mines the town was divided into different ethnic groups.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

John Greenly
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Rebar is actually a very old technology in masonry, some iron rebar has lasted for centuries.  Reinforced concrete was developed around 1849 by Monier, and the first reinforced concrete bridge was reportedly built in 1889.  I wonder where the Portland cement for these abutments came from.   That's a lot of concrete,  must have come from a very substantial cement kiln operation. Of course, it could have come from anywhere by rail.

John
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Arkansas River Crossing at Nathrop

ComoDepot
Rebar was often any scrap laying around. I know there was a cement operation in Florence before 1900.